June 9, 2007
An Interesting Exchange...Topics: Immigration and Border Issues
In light of the on-going heated debate about illegal immigration and what to do about it, and the recent resounding death of President Bush's and Congress' "amnesty" legislation in the Senate, the following exchange I had with a poster by the name of Rwilymz on RWV sheds much light on the attitudes and positions on either side of this volatile crucial subject.
The exchange began when the poster in question responded to some comments I had made about the unwilligness and inefficacy of the Bush Administration, and the Department of Homeland Security under Secretary Chertoff, in securing our borders and putting a stop to the human flood of mostly Mexican illegal aliens pouring unchecked over our southern border. About said failure, and the turn the subsequent exchange with commenter Rwilymz took, concerning the subject of Mexican illegal immigration into our country, I wrote:
I have been a staunch supporter of President Bush on the War on Terror and the Iraq war, but I have to admit that his judgement has unfortunately been less than stellar on many instances such as his stance on open borders pro-illegal Mexican immigration "amnesty" - which is what the current legislation he and congress are trying to ram down our throats really amount to; his naive belief that "all people want democracy" - proven so wrong by the election of the Hamas terrorists in the Palestinian territories, the increasing popularity of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and by so much of the Islamist extremism going on not only in Muslim countries like Pakistan and Malasya, but surprisingly even in the UK, where Muslims experience far more freedoms and rights than ever they have experienced in the history of their intolerant and barbaric culture; his obtuseness in trying to establish an American-styled democracy in Iraq instead of having placed in power a Mubarak styled "enlightened despot" strong man after the overthrow of Saddam, who would have kept the Iraqis in line - in a barbaric and savage country that was a powder keg of thousand-year-old tribal and sectarian feuds and hatreds which were only being kept in check by the extreme brutality of the Saddam regime; to his dismal lack of judgement in his appointments to key Administration positions on account of his "cronyism", such as unqualified "goody-two-shoes" Harriet Miers for Supreme Court Justice, incompetent fumbling Alberto Gonzalez for Attorney General -of the "Bush Mexican Justice Department", and corrupt sell-out U.S. Attorney Johnny Sutton - also from the "Bush Mexican Justice Department" - amongst others. Chertoff is just one more in that line of "appointees". He has amply proven his incompetence in the way the Department of Homeland Security and FEMA responded to the devastation caused by hurricane Katrina and the chaos that ensued, to the alarming lack of cohesiveness between all the agencies under his tutelage, to his dismal failure to secure the sieve that our southern border has become - through which the whole of Mexico is literally spilling-over into our country! So what can you expect of incompetent Chertoff other than to back the "amnesty" plan of his "buddy" Bush?Need I say more?
Chertoff should have been fired long ago, after his failures in handling the aftermath of Katrina!
Enforcement of immigration laws is the job of the Feds. Passing it down to employers, or school districts, hell, even to state and local governments, is dodging responsibility.Back comes Althor:
Either pay for it and do it yourself, or don't do it at all. If you *can't* do it, then don't waste the time and my tax dollars dancing around it.
I prefer fines and amnesty for legitimate working illegals than the mealy-mouthed posturing that both of the entrenched partisan fops have been engaged since roughly ... ever.
Quote: "I prefer fines and amnesty for legitimate working illegals than the mealy-mouthed posturing that both of the entrenched partisan fops have been engaged since roughly ... ever."?To which Rwilymz responds:
And I suppose along with the "fines and amnesty" you also prefer 50 million illegal Mexicans (the 12 million here now and their extended families) invading us and taking over our country, right???
Why don't we just slap a "sombrero" on a bust of JFK, and instead of a "chicken in every pot" and a "car in every garage" we just have a "taco stand on every corner" and a "burro in every garage"?!?! Isn't that the way things will go any way? After all, just stand at a corner in any so called "sanctuary" city in America - even with just the present 12 million illegal aliens - and you'd swear you are no longer in America, but in Tegucigalpa!
Welcome to the "Third World" America!!!
"I suppose along with the "fines and amnesty" you also prefer 50 million illegal Mexicans ..."?Which prompted my come back:
You got something against Mexicans? And please don't go sobbing that "they stealing our jobs", because the ones who come here to work are those who do manual grunt work. And if they took your job, then you're uneducated and underemployed, and wasting your time on a blog bitching about people taking your job isn't taking that job *back*, nor is it getting yourself an education so you can get a better job.
"just have a "taco stand on every corner""
Already have one, hombrito. Check the fast fooderies.
Here's a bit of historical compare-n-contrast for you to chew on: why did England become such a major force in the world for so long, able to go into far-off places and merge and mingle?
Because they adopted local customs and allowed locals to participate.
Why has France become largely irrelevant as a major world power?
Because they are rigidly drawing lines around everything French and keeping out the riff-raff of "chocolate chip cookie".
Allowing Mexicans in is not the same as ceding national identity to them ... unless we allow it.
Reality: we aren't going to keep Mexicans out, so quit living that fantasy.
Reality: if our internal political structure is so inherently unstable as to not be able to withstand a 15% surge in immigrant population a mere century after withstanding a 100% surge in immigrants, then we're doomed anyway.
If you want to make English the official language, go ahead; the more uniformity between new arrivals and old-timers, the better our nation can tolerate new arrivals.
If, though, you want to worry and fret on the edges over policies that cannot work in the first place, and which only succeed in demonstrating that NO ONE has a clue on how to make a practical policy, then frankly your best bet will be to move to Guadalahara and run a taxi for the tourists getting off the cruise ships, because pre-failed policies aren't going to work.
Comprende, mi amigo?
Rwilymz, for someone so obviously "educated" that he does not need to compete for work with the poor, downtrodden, illiterate Mexican peasants flooding our country to do the "menial" work "we Americans are unwilling to do", and someone so apparently sympathetic to and well versed in Mexican culture, you should at least know that it is written "hombrecito" (little man) and not "hombrito" (small shoulder? Hombro = shoulder).I find fascinating the mind-set that informed Rwilymz's arguments, much as it does most of the pro-unfettered illegal Mexican immigration crowd.
Yes I "comprende", and no I am not your "amigo."
Unlike many of you "affectated" pro-unfettered illegal (mostly Mexican) immigration proponents, I happen to be of truly "Hispanic" (as from Spain) descent. All my great-grandparents, both on my father's as well as my mother's side of the family, hailed from Spain - and no, they did not sneak across the southern border, but came here LEGALLY.
In contrast to you Rwilymz, tossing a few Spanish words facetiously here and there in your comments trying to be cute, I do speak, read, and write fluent "Castillian" correctly - unlike many of the uncouth present day Aztecs and other indigenous Mexican half-breeds invading us, who barely know how to speak Spanish correctly and use a hardly recognizable "pidgin" dialect of butchered Spanish and Nahuatl (the Aztec tongue - in case that in your ignorance you may not know) that sometimes I almost need an anthropologist to translate!
Do I have something against Mexicans? Yes I do - and mind you that I have family relations who are Mexican and or of Mexican descent, so stick your "racism" arguments up where your proctologist examines you.
First, unlike other nations and people who have fought wars of independence and risen against oppression and tyranny, Mexico conveniently took advantage of Napoleon's invasion of Spain and the subsequent abdication of King Ferdinand VII in 1808, to depose the Spanish Viceroy in New Spain (Mexico) and declare its independence from Spain, for no greater liberty-loving, democratic, altruistic motives than that of the oligarchy of "Terratenientes" and "Hacendados" landowners shirking off the "Quinto del Rey" or "Royal Fifth" 20% tax that they had to pay the Spanish crown yearly - so much for their "Heroic War of Independence" and being the first to break away from Spain during a time of crisis and while other Spanish colonies, though shaken by the tumultuous events, remained loyal to Spain!
It is an unmitigated embarrassment and a source of much national shame for Mexico, that having been a self-governing "Republic" for nearly 200 years, and much longer than most countries in the world have been nations, that it would still be mired in so much two hundred-year-old "colonialist prejudice and baggage" -"Cien Años De Soledad" as Colombian literary Nobel Laureate García Márquez would call it - and have nothing to show for it but an endless list of petty despots, dictators, revolutions and uprisings, leaving in their wake the enduring legacy of endemic poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, and "institutionalized" corruption that persists to this day!
In comparison look at Germany for instance, not only did it become a unified nation in 1871, sixty one years after Mexico declared its independence, but it became the most sophisticated, cultured, and technologically advanced nation in the world in the early 1900's, fought two World Wars, lost them amidst much destruction and devastation, was partitioned by Stalin and the communists, and yet it has not only become unified again after the fall of the Soviet Union, but has risen time and again from the ashes, and is now one of the most affluent, influential, and prosperous nations not only in Europe, but in all the world, a veritable powerhouse of technology and industry, and you don't see Germans sneaking across the Rhine, emigrating en masse like the swarms of Mexicans pouring across the Rio Grande like a plague of "cucarachas" infecting our land!
The one time that Mexico had the opportunity to have become a great "Empire" welcomed amongst the civilized nations of the world, to take its place amongst the great Constitutional Monarchies of the world, and become a cultured and cosmopolitan nation under the reign of Archduke Maximilian Von Habsburg - a progressive and democratically minded "enlightened tyrant" - resented half-breed indian Benito Juárez, could not see to setting aside his deep-seated resentments and hatred of the "white Europeans" to have become the indigenous "Disraeli" of Mexico at Maximilian's request of his becoming his Prime Minister for the sake of national reconciliation and the good of Mexico, but persisted in his uncompromising rebelliousness and defiance, no doubt with a mind-set and "hubris" much like that of Satan in Milton's "Paradise Lost" that "it is better to reign in hell than serve in heaven"...and the Mexicans have been living in hell ever since!
Ironically enough, Juárez, the "Great Statesman" whom many a Mexican compare in "moral stature" to our Abraham Lincoln, eventually would not yield the reigns of power at the end of his many-times-extended term as "Presidente de La Republica," became in practice but another Mexican dictator, and would have been ousted by the revolt of Porfirio Díaz, had he not providentially enough died of natural causes before Díaz could oust him. Who knows, had fate and his natural death not intervened, if Juárez would not have ran the same fate of being shot in front of a firing squad by Porfirio Díaz, much as he, Juárez, had Emperor Maximilian - who could have fled and yet was willing to die for what he believed in - mercilessly shot!
Secondly, most of the Mexicans literally invading us, unlike other waves of immigrants of the past, have no intention or desire to "assimilate" into American culture, but are intent on
"Reconquista," or the taking back of the American Southwest, and feel "entitled" to just walk over our borders and make demands upon the American people with insolent impunity.
For all your bravado about getting an education and letting the "chocolate chip cookie" (your words not mine) "slaves" do the menial jobs as a solution, all these illegal Mexican aliens are in fact indeed taking away our jobs!
How can an American landscaper paying his "American" workers $18.00 an hour ever hope to compete with his shady unscrupulous rival employing illegal Mexicans at $6.00 an hour???
Or for that matter, how can an elderly couple on a fixed income hope to afford a one bedroom apartment, with prices outrageously "inflated" by the artificial demand created for said apartment by twenty illegal Mexican aliens willing to share the apartment in unbelievably crowded and unsanitary conditions - to many of them an improvement over the dirt floors on which they slept at home in Mexico, having to drink from, and bathe, in the same polluted streams they defecated in - who are willing to pay through the roof for said apartment to unscrupulous landlords, who look the other way???
The reason that there are already "taco stands on every corner" is because of the damned 12 million illegals, mostly from Mexico and Central America, amongst us - and you would do well, the closer those taco stands be to the border, to make sure it is "beef" they use in their confections, and not some more "exotic" critter!
As for your fallacious argument in support of the "browning" of America by citing France as an example, the reason that France has become largely irrelevant as a major world power, is not their unwillingness to integrate the "chocolate chip cookies" (again, your words not mine) with 10% of France's present population being "Muslims" (remember the recent riots and car burnings in "Paristan"?) - not to mention immigrants of other ethnicities and religions, but the fact that for all their "Panache" all the French know how to do best, in spite of their unsufferable arrogance, is to "surrender," and they have lost every military conflict in which they were not assisted by others (i.e. the U.S. and or Britain) since they were routed - coincidentally enough to our discussion - from Mexico by Benito Juárez and his band of rag-top indians, to their humiliating defeat in WW II by Hitler, who even paraded himself down the Champs-Élysées and had his picture taken at the "Arc de Triomphe" as if but an incidental tourist!
Your saying that the reality is we aren't going to keep Mexicans out and, as you say, "so quit living that fantasy" is the height of cynicism, and highly reminiscent of the arguments made by pro-unfettered Mexican illegal invasion proponents the likes of infamous Jorge Ramos, of Univisión, who when interviewed about the subject has so brazenly condescendingly remarked, with a self-congratulatory smirk of disdain, to our very faces: "There are over twelve million illegal aliens living here already, we are not going anywhere, and America what are you going to do about it, deport them?!?!" smug in the satisfaction that we are but a bunch of spineless pushovers as a nation, and that we will never have the "cojones" - to use the appropriate Spanish term - to simply pack all these illegal aliens on buses and ship them back home, south of the border! You are the one "living the fantasy" - the "Mexican fantasy" that is - not the rest of us.
As for solutions, for the life of me I can't fathom what is so impractical, immoral, or difficult, in having the Federal Government place an order for a few thousand new "plush," comfortable, American made buses, with DVD players and air conditioning (just think what a great boom to the economy of the American Mid-west such an order would be!), and give all these illegal aliens a ride back home south of the border, and since we are such a "compassionate" nation we would even provide them with rest stops and meals at McDonald's along the way
(perhaps we can pick a few more illegal Mexican aliens there from behind the counter at McDonald's while we are ordering), and even put a couple of hundred dollars in their pockets before shoving them back to the other side of the fence, so as not to send them "destitute" back on their way home. Now, let's see, $200.00 x 12 millions = $2400.00 million. What a bargain! We would get rid of the Mexican "cucaracha" infestation...and much cheaper at that, than if we had hired "Terminex Pest Control"... with Zyklon-B (sorry about the dark humor pun, but I simply couldn't help myself. LOL!).
Oh, and by the way Rwilymz, for someone who apparently wears a "sombrero," drinks "Corona Beer" (otherwise known as "Mexican cow piss"), celebrates "Cinco de Mayo," and enthusiastically waves the flag of our illegal Mexican brethren, you would do well to at least learn how to spell "Guadalajara" correctly - no le parece?
Si fuera usted otro, Rwilymz, le diria que fuera con Dios, más a usted, vaya al carajo, que aqui en los Estados Unidos tal como en la canción de Celia Cruz: "No hay cama pa' tanta gente"!
It's also fascinating to see how so many spineless hand-wringing Americans are simply unwilling to enforce our present laws, secure our borders, and, "draconian" as it may seem to some, simply send the twelve million illegal aliens amongst us back home - in an as orderly and humane a way as possible - but back home, where they belong. Everything else is just like stirring the content of a toilet this way or the other tyring to accomodate it to subdue the stench...while reluctantly refusing to flush it!
Posted by Althor at June 9, 2007 6:22 PM
Wow! That was a great come back! You won the argument hands down. I'm going to try to regurgitate some of it next time I find myself stunned and stumbling, trying to debate some unthinking American who supports ceding our sovereignity to Mexico.
Posted by: Patty at June 10, 2007 12:08 AM
The same "can't stop it so you might as well give up" mentality is what has let to the massive amount of teen pregnancies and teen sex. Does no one feel the need to try? To eat an elephant you must do it a bite at a time. We need to start chewing.
Posted by: Rorschach at June 10, 2007 11:49 PM
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- An Interesting Exchange... - Jun 09, 2007