"Reading the text of the Pope's speech I see no evidence of a debate. We are treated to the gratuitous comment by Emperor Manuel II Paleologus to a learned Persian without having benefit of the Persian's reply..."

[...] "One would think, that is, if one bothered to do so, that any person, Persian or otherwise...who could obtain an audience with a Byzantine emperor and engage in any debate or discussion of religion, or, for that matter, anything else would be enough renowned to have had his...name recorded in the record. Could it be that the Emperor's scribe was in the habit of erasing any verifiable trace of his opponents should he fare badly in the debate? Or could it be that the discussion never took place?"

"I do not put much stock in reported 'one sided debates'."

"Now, if we had the entire text: that would be something." "By the bye, Islam was not spread by the sword and Muslim armies did not kill anyone who refused to convert to Islam. it was not in their interests to do so. They needed these persons to pay certain taxes from which Muslims as well as converts were exempt."

[...] "As for populations 'enslaved' by Muslims you don't know what you are talking about. Sooner or later, the "Islam or die" morons are going to have to answer why Islam continues to spread despite its detractors."

[...] "I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for naming me with the name of the Prophet."

"I do know what the Pope represents. As for soul, you don't have one. And as for reason, you wouldn't know it if you found it in your soup. Journey??"

"You couldn't find your way out of a paper bag."

[...] "Aha!! Finally! There it is. You really do think you, Althor, are qualified to define a prophet. You treally do think a prophet's being should conform to your ideas. Without going further it is clear to me that you think you are higher than a prophet. Of course, charged with that, you will deny it. But your statements betray you. One has to be superior to a thing in order to define it."

"Basically, you think you are a judge."

"Althor, you should give up thinking. You obviously are no good at it."

Jesse Hutton

For the sake of further clarification on Jesse's argument, we must also add that in another post on Hyscience, Jesse has made comments to the effect that Muslims have regained Al Andalus in Spain - most likely referring to the present Muslim demographic invasion not only of Spain, but of the whole of Western Europe; compared our American soldiers in Iraq to the Franks who captured Jerusalem during the First Crusade - no doubt alluding to the legendary savagery and butchery with which the Franks are reputed to have overtaken the city, which he wishes to impute to our soldiers; and insinuated that all military expeditions against the Islam were futile - convinced, no doubt, in the invincibility of Islam by "Divine Fiat"! But on with the essay:

Friend Jesse,

In our discussions, when I pointed out certain historical facts about Mohammed, you replied saying, quote: "...you should give up thinking. You obviously are no good at it." And : "You really do think you, Althor, are qualified to define a prophet. You really do think a prophet's being should conform to your ideas."

Sadly, your arguments are a perfect example of Islamist "circular thinking"!

I may be wrong about a great many things, and my logic may at times be faulty, because unlike your "Prophet" I am not divine, nor perfect, and my mistakes do not get glossed over and justified, as Mohammed's are by devout brainwashed Muslims, but at least my thinking is linear, unlike yours, which, just as that of the great majority of Muslims, is "circular" - much like an old LP vinyl record with a scratch repeating itself when played, a "frozen" crashed computer on an infinity loop, or a dog going in circles chasing his own tail!!!

In the first place, I did not define "the Prophet," but the "Prophet" defined himself!!!

As the Bible - upon which the Qur'an, which is nothing but a hodgepodge mixture of inaccurate biblical oral traditions, along with excerpts from Coptic heretical Apocrypha, passages from the Jewish Haggada and other oral sources, all mixed-in with a healthy dose of "Satanic" War Verses and such, is loosely based - says: "By their deeds you should know them."

Even amongst Muslims the Prophet's escapades as a desert pirate, robber of caravans, raider and such, has been a "bad taste blasphemous pun" for centuries!

I'll take a moment here to elucidate on what I am basing my "blasphemous" assertions about the Koran which I cite above, by quoting in support of the same our very own distinguished fellow blogger Richard, who wrote an excellent, erudite, and detailed commentary on the origins of the Koran earlier in this thread:

"For the most part, from what I've read from neutral scholars on Islam, the Qur'an copies most of its content from the bible (as with the crescent and star), throws in tribal and bedouin social and political structures, throws in some violence to enforce the resultant theosociopolitical system, and calls it all called down from God via Muhammad [Modern Muslims assert that the current Koran is identical to that recited by Muhammad. But earlier Muslims were more flexible. 'Uthman, A'isha, and Ibn Ka'b (among others) all insisted that much of the Koran had been lost]. Literally all of the scriptual basis comes from the bible and Haggada [The Koran contains many Biblical characters, but the stories are mixed up. The variations came from either the Jewish Haggada or the New Testament apocrypha or they are simply mistakes made by a listener (e.g. Haman is believed to be the minister of Pharaoh, and Mary is believed to be the sister of Aaron)]."

"What one ends up with is a disorderly presentation of a modified bible, nothing original, except the new part of which the very mention of causes world wide riots."

"Isn't violence, forced conversion by the sword, if necessary - evil?"

"On the other hand, truly moderate Muslims have done what Christians and Jews have done - looked at the violence in scripture, left it in the context within which it is presented, and accepted a take home message of love, peace, and tolerance."

"The problem is that there is no magisterium or tradition of hierarchy in the Muslim faith, such as with the primary Christian church - Catholicism, that provides the infrastructure for reform and transition into a faith system that is compatible with the modern world. It is this step that, if taken, would constitute a major step toward meaningful reform in Islam. And this step must come from within Islam by progressives, if it is to occur at all. If it does not, much of Islam will remain stuck in the Middle Ages."

"Readers will find Ibn Warraq's "Origins of the Koran" quite informative on the matter of sources and development of the Koran as it's read and interpreted today."

Continuing from here, and as I was saying, I did not presume to "judge" the Prophet. It was "the Prophet" the one that defined himself by his own actions!

As I pointed out, the "laundry list" of accusations and grievances imputed to Mohammed about his sins, his impropriaties, and "un-prophet-like" behavior all throughout his life, was not compiled by me. I simply quoted what some Muslims who have dropped the "blinders" of their "circular thinking" wrote, again

"Why Mohammed was not a prophet:"

"One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad's life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their "right hand possessions" (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified."

As I said, this was written not by me, but by "Muslims" who have stopped engaging in the habitual Muslim "circular thinking" of following the dogmas of Islam blindly, like dumb animals, and are now "linearly" questioning the "logos" logical and moral merits of the Islam of "Submission" with which they were "indoctrinated" since childhood. In their own words:

"Who we are:"

"We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits."

"What we believe:"

"Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others they way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule."

Wow! Isn't that simply amazing Jesse?!?! Enlightened Muslims who believe in the "Golden Rule" of not blowing someone up just because he made a cartoon of the Prophet, or doesn't agree with Islam!!!

You say, quote: "Without going further it is clear to me that you think you are higher than a prophet. Of course, charged with that, you will deny it. But your statements betray you. One has to be superior to a thing in order to define it. Basically, you think you are a judge."

I'm not a judge, but I do try to have common sense and discernment! It doesn't take a "rocket scientists," or a "Prophet," for that matter, to have either!!!

Again, I am but man full of frailties and faults, who has but little knowledge and many doubts, and I would never presume to consider myself above any other human being, much less a prophet, but at least, I have discernment, and can tell that killing a fellow human being on a "perceived slight" to my beliefs - which may well be mistaken - IS WRONG, or that blowing up innocent bystanders who have nothing to do with my quarrels in order to kill an enemy IS WRONG, that massacring women and children IS WRONG, that committing suicide and killing innocent people in order to kill my enemies is not only MURDER , and not only WRONG, but a SLAP in the face of the Deity who gave me the life that in my "Hubris" I fling back in His Face; and I do not need the "Koran," or the "Bible," or any other
"Sacred Scripture" to tell me that it is WRONG, because IT IS WRITTEN IN MY HEART, as the Torah says: "The LAW is written in the hearts of men" !!!

I do have to commend you though, that at least you are trying to reason in spite of your circular thinking, and are willing to "dialogue" instead of doing like your devout fellow Muslims do, who take the Koran literally; and at least you don't go out there, and kill and burn your Christian neighbor, or blow yourself up in a Schoolyard full of children, all because some "asshole" by the name of "Althor" posted something irreverent and derogatory about "the Prophet" on Hyscience! I have to give you that: Hat's off to you!

But going back to the core of the problem, personally, I could care less wether you believe Mohammed to be the Prophet, any more than if you believe Joseph Smith to be a Prophet to whom a "Moronic" angel gave some long-lost ancient golden tablets, which he alleged only "He" could translate from out of a hat, with the help of a "magical" stone that was nothing but a common riverbed pebble, so long as YOU DON"T KILL ANYONE BECAUSE OF YOUR BELIEFS!!!

Mormons don't go out there and threaten with killing South Park cartoonists, all because they made fun of their Prophet, Joseph Smith, in a stupid bad taste cartoon, in the manner in which your fellow Muslims made all the hooplah, made all the threats, and indulged in the violence, and the mayhem, on account of some stupid, innocuous, "Danish cartoons"! It's that simple.

Christians get as deeply offended by an atheist artist depicting Jesus crucified in a jar of urine, or by a picture of Mary, His Mother, made out of dung, just as much as Muslims get offended by someone ridiculing or berating the Prophet, but unlike Muslims, the Christians of "TODAY" don't go out there and blow themselves up inside the Art gallery where these works are being displayed, or burn the building housing the Art gallery down, or kill innocent passers by who had the misfortune to have happened to be in the vicinity of the building!!!

And I stressed the "today" because I know that you, along with the "secularists" who love to bash Christianity, will argue: "Oh, but what about the Inquisition of 200 years ago, or the Crusades of 800 years ago, or the persecution of Jews and Muslims in Spain of 514 years ago???"- all of which are in the PAST! While the "Muslim" Radical Islamist terrorists and suicide bombers, such as the ones responsible for 9/11, the Madrid Railway Station attacks, the London terrorist bombings, and those responsible for the daily diet of violence, carnage, and gore we see day to day in Iraq and all over the world, are committing such atrocities TODAY!!!

For one thing, it is encouraging that it does seem that your approach to the Koran is a bit more philosophical and mystical than that of those other Muslims in the Arab street taking it "literally" and engaging in these heinous acts of barbarity which have sadly become so commonplace that they form a daily diet of violence, death, destruction, and grief, all over the world on a daily basis!

To quote Richard once more, this time in his so appropriately poignant piece: "How did I forget Muslim's Day of Rage", who points out in his comments made in answer to my observation that it seemed to me that "to Muslims every day is a 'Day of Rage' ":

"You can check every single day for the last couple of years, and on every one of those days, somewhere in the world, someone has been killed in the name of Allah."

"If you doubt this and want to get a snapshot of where we are on that trend - just take a look at the last week, the last month, the last year....."

"Or, just start today, tomorrow, the next day, this week, etc...."

"It's incredible."

The naked truth may be harsh, gnarled, and ugly in the exposing burning light of "reason"...but for all its hideousness and deformities it is still THE TRUTH !!!

The Islam that has been practiced since its inception, brought by Mohammed, has been nothing but a harbinger of wars, death and destruction! It has ravaged entire nations and cultures, which it has trampled under its boots, and subjugated with its Sharia yoke and its slavish Dhimminitude! It has turned captive children, indoctrinated in Islam, against their own parents, their own people, and their own nations! It has imposed its hateful ideology upon the conquered by brute force, coercion, and the edge of the sword! To this very day it is has only brought rivers of blood, heart-rending wailing, and monumental grief, to this sorrowful world; lashing out its blind savagery even upon its very own, as demonstrated by the fierce internecine violence and bloodshed, between fellow Muslims, of the wars and intrigues surrounding the Prophet's "Succession" at Mohammed's death, so exemplified to this very day by the on-going "wholesale slaughter" still going on in Iraq between Sunni and Shi'ite!!!

Looking at it dispassionately, it seems self-evident that the comments made by Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologos, quoted by Pope Benedict XVI, which have so enraged Muslims worldwide, and generated so much violence in the Muslim world, are true, as the Emperor observed, and that indeed, no matter how much we may wish to Politically Correct "rose-colour" it, deny it, or justify it, one is eventually forced to agree with him: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

As "ugly" and "offensive" as that "truth" may be to Muslims, the Emperor's is still a valid observation, and ironically, all their on-going rage, violence, and mayhem, and all their threats against the life of the Holy Father for having quoted him, as well as their proclivity to react with violence, brutality and intolerance, to anyone who criticizes Islam or does it the smallest slight, are but self-evident proofs that Manuel II Paleologos was indeed right in his assessment!!!

In summation Jesse, even as he was trying to accomplish with his riveting and provocative Lecture at the University of Regensburg, Pope Benedict XVI, is exhorting Islam, as well as the rest of us in the West, to appeal to "logos," reason, to resolve our differences, encouraging us to establish a meaningful and constructive "dialogue" between our Civilizations. In condemning the gratuitous violence of Islam he was only pointing to the obvious, as well as it was his moral obligation to do so - just as it is that of every decent human being! It is Islamic violence which is incompatible with God and the nature of the Soul, not "logos," as the Holy Father pointed out!

But, there is little the Pope, or anyone else for that matter, can do, if Muslims are not willing to drop their blinders and face the truth! The world has grown too small with satellite links, telecommunications, and air travel, for Islam to remain immutable in its barbarity, intolerance, and repression, no longer isolated by mountain ranges and deserts, within its tribal, 10th century, Medieval mentality! It is time for Islam to come out of the Dark Ages, it is time for Islam to reform or perish....and only Muslims can effect the transition!!!

Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion!