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January 3, 2006

HarryTho 1/03 Natalee Holloway Commentary

Topics: Natalee Holloway

This evening we will continue exploring the shortcomings in the investigation into Natalee Holloway's disappearance. Our last editorial identified possible motives for the Birmingham Office of the FBI to ignore their duties. Primarily, we highlighted a possible connection between the Special Agent in Charge (SAC) and the Kingdom of Mountain Brook. Whether that connection exists is unknown, but it seems likely, since both Beth and Jug Twitty were so certain that the FBI thoroughly investigated the Kingdom of Mountain Brook students.

Having covered the first connection, let us explore the interrelationship between the FBI and the US Department of Justice (USDJ). First, let us visit the Department of Justice.

USDOJ: About DOJ

Officially coming into existence on July 1, 1870, the Department of Justice, pursuant to the 1870 Act, was to handle the legal business of the United States. The Act gave the Department control over all criminal prosecutions and civil suits in which the United States had an interest. In addition, the Act gave the Attorney General and the Department control over federal law enforcement. To assist the Attorney General, the 1870 Act created the Office of the Solicitor General.
The 1870 Act is the foundation upon which the Department of Justice still rests. However, the structure of the Department of Justice has changed over the years, with the addition of the Deputy Attorneys General and the formation of the Divisions. Unchanged is the steadily increasing workload of the Department. It has become the world's largest law office and the central agency for enforcement of federal laws.

List of agencies subordinate to the Justice Department:

USDOJ: About DOJ - Alphabetical List of Components

Clearly, the list of subordinate agencies is endless. The FBI investigates any irregularities emanating from any of these agencies, as well as, the State Department. Make no mistake here, this is the function of the FBI.

Federal Bureau of Investigation
Office of Legal Counsel

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Home Page

The FBI is a subordinate division of the Justice Department.

The FBI:
1) prosecutes crimes committed against the United States; and
2) conducts investigations of matters controlled by the Justice and State Departments.

One way to imagine the jurisdiction of the FBI, other than the foregoing, is to envision a space created by interstate relationships. If the issue in dispute concerns intrastate affairs, then the local state authorities have primary jurisdiction. Whenever, an issue involves other states or sovereign countries, the FBI has jurisdiction. In Hawaii for example, the state of Hawaii has no state police per se. Since each county is essentially an island and the fact that travel over water is required to reach each island, the FBI has jurisdiction in inter-island affairs.

OLC Homepage

The Office of Legal Counsel also functions as general counsel for the Department itself. It reviews all proposed orders of the Attorney General and all regulations requiring the Attorney General's approval. It also performs a variety of special assignments referred by the Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General.

This office advises the Attorney General of the United States on matters related to the jurisdiction of the Justice Department.

About the State Department

The State Department acts as the Foreign Ministry for the United States of America. The State Department maintains control of all inter-sovereignty affairs.

Office of the Legal Adviser

The Office is organized to provide direct legal support to the Department of State's various bureaus, including both regional and geographic offices (those which focus on specific areas of the world) and functional offices (those which deal with specific subject matters such as economics and business, international environmental and scientific issues, or internal management).

Counselor of the Department

Counselor of the Department, is a principal officer who serves the Secretary as a special advisor and consultant on major problems of foreign policy and who provides guidance to the appropriate bureaus with respect to such matters. The Counselor conducts special international negotiations and consultations, and also undertakes special assignments from time to time, as directed by the Secretary.
>>>

From the foregoing, we can visualize how the Birmingham FBI Office become entrained into the Natalee Holloway investigation. First, Natalee Holloway went missing overseas (allegedly). Since she was a United States citizen, she fell under the jurisdiction of the State Department. Since other American citizens from the Birmingham area accompanied her to Aruba and returned to the Kingdom of Mountain Brook, AL, the FBI acquired jurisdictional authority of the matter, because it involved an overseas to USA case. The FBI assumed the mantle of investigation for those students who returned to Alabama.

Currently, the only hampering issue to the FBI in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is that there exists little evidence that Natalee Holloway is missing.

Also, from the foregoing, the FBI acts as point of contact for the Department of Justice with emphasis upon the states of Alabama, Arkansas and Georgia. Any question concerning activity in the Natalee Holloway case should have been brought to the attention of the FBI, so that the associated FBI Office could have provided sound advice via the Justice Department or the State Department..

The location of the FBI Offices are:

FBI Atlanta Division Home Page

Atlanta- FBI's Most Wanted


Please note that Natalee Holloway does not appear on the Georgia FBI's missing persons webpage. Her name only appears amongst the general national "Seeking Information" webpage.

Little Rock Main Page

Like the Georgia FBI missing persons' webpage, Natalee Holloway is absent.

Despite Natalee Holloway being absent from the Georgia and Arkansas FBI websites, both their governors called for a boycott of Aruba. Certainly, I believe it has been shown within Supreme Court rulings, in prior post, by the Massachusetts case against Burma (Myanmar) that the boycott exceeded the authority of the governors of Alabama, Arkansas and Georgia. Why were these governors permitted to stray so far afield? Apparently, as in the investigation of the Kingdom of Mountain Brook students, all these FBI offices just laid down.

Is this wrong? After all, the FBI offices could contend that they were overworked. And, I suppose that ample data supports that the FBI could be overworked with all the missing persons and criminals loose as advertised on their websites. So what gives?

Well, let remember that our tax dollars pay for those FBI offices and all their salaries. Our tax dollars warrant professionalism. Accordingly, any act of laying down rather then performing their jobs is a serious matter. Contrary to our politicians, there are no excuses for laying down. If they claim to be overworked, then the SACs need to be evaluated for competency in administration of their offices. Obviously, the defrauded their superiors into believing that they could handle their assignments. They could not.

In this case, it was clear, despite requests from the Aruban authorities, the FBI offices in Birmingham, Atlanta and Little Rock had a duty to advise legislatures and the governors under their jurisdiction of the folly of decreeing a boycott against a foreign power. Additionally, the FBI office in Birmingham has direct responsibility to investigate the Kingdom of Mountain Brook teens. Apparently, none of these actions occurred.

Lastly, let me remind everyone that when it comes to performing your function to which the taxpayers underwrite, there exists no excuses. That is right. There are no excuses. Our tax dollars pay for professionalism. There are no excuses for failing to perform up to expectations.

When we address the Skeeter - Dr. Phil tapes, we can find a similar requirement for the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to act:

About the FCC

EB - Investigations & Hearings Division

The Investigations & Hearings Division is responsible for resolution of complaints against broadcast stations and other Title III licensees on non-technical matters such as indecency, enhanced underwriting, unauthorized transfer of control and misrepresentation.

Once again, we discover an agency with the responsibility, paid by our tax dollars, to investigate the Skeeter tapes.

What is happening here? Did, yet another agency, lay down? And, once again, there are no excuses for lack of performance.

In my opinion, there exists an amount of personnel in charge of agencies with which they lack the competency to manage, either through incompetence, indifference or bureaucratic cowardice. Those personnel need to be removed.

Aloha for now, and as usual, will meet with some of you in the comments.

Posted for HarryTho

Posted by Richard at January 3, 2006 7:17 PM

Another exceptionally well-researched article.

It would seem that the FBI did indeed have an unshirkable obligation to investigate and advise in Mountain Brook. While only time will tell whether or not they assisted Aruba with trip-participant follow-ups, your comments about 'failing to perform' are most pertinent and can, unfortunately--and even more unfortunately, can in a world-wide context--be used to damn so many who fail to give value to the taxpayers for the way their dollars are spent.

Posted by: dayo gould at January 3, 2006 8:32 PM

Monsieur Harry
I wonder why some of the people is looking the ALE. , I have been realizing that they are not as efficient as they describe them and they make mistakes. If the FBI solves one out of ten cases well I think they are even with ALE. I have seen the link for missing people, nothing New, cases from 95 so what is the people complaining about???
Anyways this is for some of the people to be more happy because Joran maybe he was not interested in the invitation and…..
Joran van der Sloot went back to Holland on December 30
http://www.diarioaruba.com/diamars/noticia/index.html
01/03/2006
http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?p=361225#361225
Antoinette

Posted by: antoinette at January 3, 2006 10:00 PM

Monsieur Harry
I wonder why some of the people is looking the ALE. , I have been realizing that they are not as efficient as they describe them and they make mistakes. If the FBI solves one out of ten cases well I think they are even with ALE. I have seen the link for missing people, nothing New, cases from 95 so what is the people complaining about???
Anyways this is for some of the people to be more happy because Joran maybe he was not interested in the invitation and…..
Joran van der Sloot went back to Holland on December 30
http://www.diarioaruba.com/diamars/noticia/index.html
01/03/2006
http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?p=361225#361225
Antoinette

Posted by: antoinette at January 3, 2006 10:02 PM

Dear Harry:
Listen if you want to talk misrepresentation some could look to you. Allegedly missing. I agree about the FBI and if you expect any satisfaction there, well it just doesn't look like that is going to happen.

You know for a fact that they had good leads on Amy but still was unable to locate her. Anybody with resources could have found her. Would like to hear what went wrong there. Could you and Richard follow up with FBI on that one.

Lets get back to Natalee.
Girl was last seen with 3 guys.
Girl know longer seen after that.
Guys (JORAN)say they will tell you one day what really happened.
I am not a psychiatrist but for this guy to torture parents like that says a little about character not to mention but oars aren't in the water. That alone leads me to believe he is fully capable of murder. No conscience.

Do we need to really come up with conspiracys when we have good suspects at hand.
I heard talk about Twittys trust fund and how she had her hands all in it. My God guys, do you even know who the trustee is. That money will have to be accounted for.


Posted by: Allan Kluttz at January 3, 2006 10:10 PM

Oars out of the water? how about 10 french fries short of a happy meal? 4 sandwiches short of a picnic? Joran doesn't have a conscience,I agree.This type usually talks to someone at somepoint later.I read the father, Paulus VDS was NOT accepted into the Judge in training program but retains his position.

Posted by: Mac at January 3, 2006 10:36 PM

Guys (JORAN)say they will tell you one day what really happened.
I am not a psychiatrist but for this guy to torture parents like that says a little about character not to mention but oars aren't in the water. That alone leads me to believe he is fully capable of murder. No conscience.

Posted by: Allan Kluttz at January 3,

allan: with all due respect i have heard this comment or variations for some time now........looking at it another way why should he tell all to the press during an ongoing investigation?
i found it interesting that in early june the fbi asked the twittys not to speak to the press..

& i would think this has had a severe impct on the relationship of the twittys & the investigation.......if i were investigating a crime & felt any information would be fodder for the nightly news shows i would hesitate......

i cut the mb teens a lot of slack with the press....they have no obligation....nor does joran
it is very possible..even likely that he has already revealed all he knows........to the right people

Posted by: chip at January 3, 2006 10:59 PM

Kool-aid isn't so bad. I like grape in the summertime! But I like a beer on ice with a squeeze or 2 or 3 of lime. Yum. Knock knock,who's there? Joran. Joran who? Joranot going out with my daughter! Knock Knock! Whos there? Deepak. Deepak who? Dee pack of lies you told. Knock Knock. Who's there? Paulus. Paulus who? Paulus is in on it too................. Welcome to Fantasy Island if you think these 3 are innocent! Dee plane Dee plane !!!!!!

Posted by: ute at January 3, 2006 11:03 PM

With all due respect back they did not talk to the press untill they saw nothing was going to happen.
Just like Steve Cohen saying they would be brought in for questioning in 10 days. The police knew they were released with prejudice that they couldn't be brought back in. If I was the parents I would be on the phone to the press everyday. Just how damn stupid do you think I am to keep believing what they say will happen. As far as Joran telling the right people hell no he doesn't have a conscious. Any person making those statements is extremely cruel. Besides Paulus friend Van Der Stratten already said she wouldn't be found alive because he knew what the details were.

Posted by: Allan Kluttz at January 3, 2006 11:14 PM

Ute:

they might be guilty, but I see no hard evidence available to convict them of anything more than being kids having too much free time on their hands and not respecting parents, other than that I don't see any evidence that would allow any competent court of law to charge them with kidnapping, murder, rape, gang rape or even attempting to help someone disappear. If you have any please give it to the authorities I'm sure they would love to solve this case. IMHO Moey

Posted by: MOEY at January 3, 2006 11:15 PM

Dear Allan Kluttz:

Most of what you post here has been discarded long ago. Why do you bother? And, you are right, Allan, you are no psychologist and probably not a criminologist either. We have no good suspects. The courts have determined that already. Maybe you missed that decision.

My recommendation to you is either get up-to-date on the case or find some blog that caters to your beliefs. I can think of a few. Those blogs would applaud your ideas. I don't.

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 3, 2006 11:20 PM

Ute:

Interesting post! Are you Beth Twitty's son Matt, or are you auditioning for an American cable news network anchor position?

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 3, 2006 11:53 PM

Guys (JORAN)say they will tell you one day what really happened.
I am not a psychiatrist but for this guy to torture parents like that says a little about character not to mention but oars aren't in the water. That alone leads me to believe he is fully capable of murder. No conscience.
Posted by: dayo gould at January 3, 2006 08:32 PM

Oh please. How lame can you get. Obviously, he was referring to something Natalee said or did that night that had NOTHING to do with her disappearance. For all we know the authorities told him to keep his mouth shut.

Posted by: Max at January 4, 2006 12:29 AM

i think Harry is so right. The answer is in mountainbrook.

Posted by: jackson80 at January 4, 2006 12:39 AM

SNIP: According to a well-placed source on Aruba, one of the Black security guards was an informant for the Aruban police. I hope that satisfies your concerns about any Aruban botching of the case early on. Both security guards occupied cells adjacent to two of the three suspects. They both were employed as informants.

Thanks for that bit of info; it certainly shines a new light on the claims of how the Arubans "botched" the case from the beginning.

Posted by: Max at January 4, 2006 12:58 AM

Harry,

Looks like the paid Twitty/Holloway workers are out in full force tonight. Guess Bethie is fired up mad because she got cut off of Greta's show last night, and oh my she even brought her Journal of Lies along. But we can all rejoice Greta will have her back next week with her Journal of Lies. After all Bethie is working against the calendar now, what if Natalee comes back before she finishes with her latest money runs and tv appearances. What a charade this is..

Posted by: therose at January 4, 2006 1:03 AM

Max, Dayo didn't write anything like you attributed to him; I suspect your mistake may feel offensice both to Alan and him.

"The Investigations & Hearings Division is responsible for resolution of complaints against broadcast stations and other Title III licensees on non-technical matters such as ... misrepresentation"

Harry,

This is an interesting (at least for myself) matter - what are our rights to be free of misrepresentation vs. other's right to express self in any speech?

Posted by: George at January 4, 2006 4:00 AM

Dear Harry,

I like to elaborate my above comment. I knew that I can't successfully sue anyone for misrepresentation without showing how that alleged misrepresentation affected me tangible. I did not know though, if I just as a member of population am protected somehow by the state. Your above post sounds like FCC has duty to protect us.

I think it is an interesting subject, no matter the Natalee Holloway issue.

Posted by: George at January 4, 2006 4:11 AM

The answers are neither with Mountain Brook, nor with Aruba. The answers lie with Natalee herself.

She is one that either, planned this disappearance, or it was a split-second decision, or the gal simply committed suicide.

If she is still among the living, then she is being well protected. Possibly from someone she kept in contact w/ in Costa Rica, from her other vacations there. It was stated that when Natalee was 13, and vacationing their with her mother and step father, she ran away. She was quickly found, and returned home with Beth and Jug. This according to either a family member, or a close friend of the family.(I can't remember who it was, that stated this, but it was in the Birmingham news) Also, and it has been reported that Natalee, was a seasoned traveler. According to reports, that Jug and Beth allowed Natalee to go to Aruba, because she has already been to other countries.

If she committed suicide, then her remains are long gone..and no answers will EVER be forth coming. If she is alive, then ONLY Natalee can explain what drove her to such desperate measures that she felt she needed to disappear.

On another note...
I went to bed, last night, Praising God that the miners were all found alive, except one. That was the news I heard.

This morning, however, I just read that the early reports were not true, that in fact one one survived while 11 other's perished.

My thoughts and prayers are with these families. How horrible to hear that your loved ones were found alive, then to only be told it wasn't true.
May God bless them.

Posted by: Donna at January 4, 2006 4:26 AM

What would give the fbi or even ale (alabama law enforcement) jurisdiction in a missing person case in Aruba? And of course ale (aruban law enforcement) has no jurisdiction in Alabama ... so who does that leave to interview the MB kids?

kc

Posted by: kc at January 4, 2006 8:48 AM

I just don't see it.

http://www.aruba.com/holloway/questions.htm

Off-Island Investigative Resources

Readers should note that the following information was prepared by the Website editors from publicly available documents and news stories.

1. Does the FBI have jurisdiction in the suspected kidnapping of an American in a foreign country?

The FBI is primarily a domestic law enforcement agency. It only has jurisdiction over cases assigned to it inside U.S. borders. In the U.S., kidnapping is a federal crime investigated by the FBI. The FBI only has jurisdiction in murder or sexual assault cases on federal property or Indian reservations. Recent expansion of its mandate to work in foreign countries is confined to terrorism cases. FBI agents have assisted in the Holloway case on the request of the Aruban government.
(Updated 11/30/05)

2. How does a foreign country make use of FBI agents and facilities?

In response to the formal request of a foreign country to the U.S. Department of State, the FBI provides advice and technical assistance on criminal matters. The FBI maintains a relationship with police officials in many countries worldwide through its legal attachés who are assigned to U.S. Embassies. As part of that liaison effort, the FBI provides extensive training to foreign police officials at its training center in Quantico, Virginia. The Aruban police have sent numerous officers for training at Quantico.
(Updated 11/30/05)

3. Do FBI agents have arrest and investigative powers in a foreign country?

If arrests are required they are made under the laws of the country by authorities of that country. Diplomatic means are utilized if extraditions to the U.S. or other procedures are required.
(Updated 11/30/05)

4. Who pays for FBI agents’ services when they are overseas?

The FBI pays for these services.
(Updated 11/30/05)

5. How has the FBI been involved in the investigation?

The FBI has been involved in the Holloway case from the beginning. FBI agents arrived within 72 hours of the initial complaint and remained on the island for several months, serving as observers and advisors to the Aruban police. The FBI has conducted some interviews in the U.S. and processed some evidentiary material.
(Updated 11/30/05)

6. To what extent is the FBI granted access to the investigation?

The amount of disclosure about the Holloway case to FBI agents is significant. FBI agents were allowed to see the case file and be present at interrogations. They have been present at most briefings and were continuously consulted as observers and advisors.
(Updated 11/30/05)

7. Does the FBI still have access?

Yes. Aruban police have a policy of ongoing cooperation and consultation with the FBI.
(Updated 11/30/05)

8. Did the FBI, at any point in the investigation, criticize the approach of the Aruban authorities in the investigation, or make recommendations regarding possible contamination of evidence?

To our knowledge, the FBI agents working with the Aruban police have expressed satisfaction with the approach to the investigation, including interrogations.
(Updated 11/30/05)

9. What resources have the Dutch government made available to the investigation on the island? (After all, they are the mother country and take care of foreign affairs for their former colonies)

The Aruban government facilitated the necessary paperwork and stimulated the involvement of the Dutch government for support. Dutch marines helped search the island of Aruba, both on foot and by air, for Ms. Holloway. The Aruban police consulted with both the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation and Dutch experts during the investigation.
(Updated 11/30/05)

Posted by: kc at January 4, 2006 9:12 AM

What else is new? The mighty agencies whose names are bandied about, especially in the movies, are in reality plagued by unescapable bureaucracy in terrible inefficiency. I've seen major cases die on the vine, and then after 6 or more years, the agency has the gaul to send one a forum asking for a signature to authorize the claimant's dropping of the case. Unless there's pressure from the top, these cases don't move. And if under pressure they do move, it's in circles, always looking for an out. The usual claim is understaffing. Nothing is ever mentioned of work ethic.

Posted by: strayze at January 4, 2006 9:22 AM

Last seen with ,first suspected. Was Natalie ever even dropped off at the beach? I doubt it very much. A drunk person lying down can vomit and then choke to death. I think either that happened and they panicked or they realized the consensual sex part wouldn't work when she came around to full consciousness.They may never be found guilty but we know that doesn't mean they aren't guilty. It just means they have gotten away(until any new evidence appears) with murder.

Posted by: jc at January 4, 2006 12:55 PM

Monsieur Harry,
I have seen that Joran went back to the Netherlands, INVITED to come for the interrogatory. The same with one of the Kalpoes, Do this mean that case is getting to be close?
*What about if Natalee does not want to return with TWITTY or HOLLOWAYS ?

Posted by: antoinette at January 4, 2006 12:55 PM

Harry, Harry, Quite contrary, how does your garden grow? with grass and sand on a rocky grave along the Aruban shore....... and no more....no more.....a rock covered grave with sand and grass and nothing more.

Posted by: linda at January 4, 2006 1:04 PM

KC:

An American citizen was reported missing/kidnapped/murdered (you can choose?) in Aruba. She was accompanied by some 120 classmates with whom she enjoyed their company for five days in Sodom & Gomorrah-style, then those 120 or so classmates returned to the USA: The Kingdom of Mountain Brook. Even under your selective 9 or more web-pillars of the FBI, the FBI has jurusdiction over 120 or more potential suspects and/or witnesses.

In point of clarification:

"#4. Who pays for FBI agents’ services when they are overseas?

The FBI pays for these services.
(Updated 11/30/05)"

The response should read: The American taxpayer pays for these services! The FBI spends our tax dollars.

We demand professionalism in return for our tax dollars. Obviously, the FBI and the FCC (both paid servants of the American taxpayer) forgot that.

Face it: the FBI and the FCC just laid down!

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 1:08 PM

Dearest linda:

Your post rhymes! This is really a place for grown-up people. Why don't you be a good girlie and skip back to your elementary school class. I'm sure that they miss you terribly.

With Aloha,

Harry

PS: Aren't they darlings?

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 1:14 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: "...knock,who's there? Joran. Joran who? Joranot going out with my daughter! Knock Knock! Whos there? Deepak. Deepak who? Dee pack of lies you told. Knock Knock. Who's there? Paulus. Paulus who? Paulus is in on it too................."

Posted by: ute at January 3, 2006 11:03 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------

You obviously forgot the most important one:
"Knock , knock! Who's there? Beth. Beth who? Beth Twitty's once again on our TV screen, in her beloved "limelight," with her same stale, old, tired tirades, and panhandling for "donations!"

She's just like that old drinkning song: "This is the song that never ends....it just goes on and on my friend..!"

She must be cursing her stars that she got once more interrupted by a tragedy: the death of those poor miners at the Sago mine, just as she got upset at Katrina for being a "smokescreen" that diverted the attention of her Media "buddies" from covering her "all important nightly appearances!"

But I'm sure she'll recover, as she incredibly has after everything from terrorist bombings in London, three devastating hurricanes, through killer floods, massive earthquakes, and other disasters and calamities that have killed thousands and affected millions, to only see her resurface yet again on our television screens like some obscene version of Steven Spielberg's
"Poltergeist"("She's baaaack...!!!)again, and again, and again...so that I'm sure by the end of the week she'll be once more on Greta, unfazed, to regale us with the same spin, and vengeful Banshee wails she has used for months...with nothing new to say!!!

Althor

Althor

Posted by: Althor at January 4, 2006 1:21 PM

Mademoiselle Antoinette:

I heard a rumor that Joran declined to partake in cable news networks' media circus. One has to wonder why a young man would decline such an opportunity to mingle with such deranged minds. To what is the world coming?

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 1:22 PM

Hi Harry,
I see that you are under full attack.
I was saddened to read that you have lost faith in the FBI. I know from the newspapers that they have been involved since day 1, I believe that they are still at work. Let's hope that the conclusions that can be drawn from their lack of communication with the public are unfounded. Let's hope that they are busy beavers working on the case and that they will soon present the Aruban prosecutor with information that will enable them to either rule out the Americans or rule them in. The more information that can be obtained from the Americans, the more the case can be better focused. I do hope that the "attack" that you are experiencing is not a sign that some may feel that they are untouchable and have the upper hand. That would be a shame.
All in all, however, it does seem as though one fact is obvious, no one appears to be searching for the kid.
A poster on RWV yesterday posed a very interesting question to salk salk/Millicent Buslstrode, the self proclaimed poster from the MBHS class of '05, the poster asked: If you are all so worried and concerned for your very good friend, someone you care about deeply, a person you were all "good friends" with, how come you all didn't go down to Aruba during your winter break and search for her?
I am paraphrasing their question but it appears to be an interesting one. Why hasn't anyone gone down to Aruba in recent weeks to search for this girl and to try and find evidence as to what has happened to her?

Posted by: Little Bo Peep at January 4, 2006 2:25 PM

Lets get back to Natalee.
Girl was last seen with 3 guys.
Girl know longer seen after that.
Guys (JORAN)say they will tell you one day what really happened.
I am not a psychiatrist but for this guy to torture parents like that says a little about character not to mention but oars aren't in the water. That alone leads me to believe he is fully capable of murder. No conscience......Sorry Allan Klutsz you seems to be one of them that really believe what Beth and Jug had to say! I want you to show us a written statement which can tell us these words of Joran! You are not a psychiatrist but you will soon need one.
Everytime you read an article regarding some facts or truth of everything that is going around the case some people show up and turn the whole thing around. Come up with facts and not opinions because this won't do you any good. Tell us why the Governor of Alabama is giving the Aruban/Dutch investigators a hell of a time and now even puts the FBI in a hot corner because the students and chaparones are to be intervieuwed? Tell us why Beth pressured the Chapparones not to talk to the media? Joran don't need to appear on t.v. to show that he's innocent or not....in Aruba the Courthouse decide and not some lousy opinions. Try to remember what happened back in the WWII when USS Indianapolis was brought to the bottom of the ocean....they used the capitan of the Jap submarine to convict the captin Mc Vay of the USS Indianapolis. You know why? BEcause they didn't have the courage and honored to accept that they did a mistake by puttin a couple of thousand men on board of one single ship with no esccort. This is something similar....There is something back in Alabama and Aruba and the three boys needs to be crucified. None of you dare to find out how fast the Twitties arrived in Aruba together with the media to cover this soap opera. Who do you think Beth and Jug are lying? They lying to themselves, they will keep broadcasting stories in order to receive funds. are you stupid or what? You already forget Beth insisted to move out from the Holiday Inn and checked in at the Marriot on account of the Aruban people? Do you belive in does matter where to stay if you are grieving? Come to Aruba and we show you the bills, the donations and much more that you never thought that an american can do to a small island just because of money. Go back to Alabama and ask Beth Twitty to show you Natalee's room. She will kick you out just like she did with Greta when she ask to see Natalee's room. You can bla bla bla as much as you want, we know that we did our utmost best to find Natalee, to assist her family and to investigate the three boys. What else do you want? This is not the middle east were you can hang somebody just because you don't like it. The FBI was here, the Dutch experts were here and they did find nothing. The one side of the story you have till now is that one of Beth and Jug. The FBI never spoke about the investigation and they will never will. There are things that needs to be clear out in Alabama and that scares everybody. Let's be honest with ourselves, if Beth wants to find Natalee she must be in Aruba and not running around stroking rich people for money. Aruba is not afraid of Beth and Jug, we are not afraid of a boycott...and believe me folks we are not afraid of anyhing because we didn't hide anything. You want to keep writting things you don't know, go ahead. Do it! But after you finishing writting your personal opinion do your self a big favor....go pray for the many hundreds that are missing in Alabama and other part of the States. I am quite sure you won't do it because they are Afroamericans or Latino's and they are poor people too. So stop believing that money can buy anything. You can have an expense bed however that doesn't give you a good sleep.
If you still believe that your system is the best then go ask yourself how O.J. walks away after killing two persons.

Posted by: Albert at January 4, 2006 2:35 PM

What happened with Natalee that occurred where the United States government has investigative and prosecutorial(sp) jurisdiction?

nada

So why do you keep complaining about them?

Harry wrote
An American citizen was reported missing/kidnapped/murdered (you can choose?) in Aruba. She was accompanied by some 120 classmates with whom she enjoyed their company for five days in Sodom & Gomorrah-style, then those 120 or so classmates returned to the USA: The Kingdom of Mountain Brook. Even under your selective 9 or more web-pillars of the FBI, the FBI has jurusdiction over 120 or more potential suspects and/or witnesses.

Posted by: kc at January 4, 2006 3:04 PM

-----------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE:
"Once again, the American media have leaped upon a story that was just plain wrong, reported it as fact, and spun it for all it's worth."

"This time, the media's tragic reporting of a genuine tragedy involving the lives of 13 men, lifted the hearts and spirits of the families of the mine disaster victims [falsely]....[though] many newspapers, and all of cable TV news, reported the rescue as fact[which was not true], not merely based on family claims."


Posted by Richard at 09:32 AM

------------------------------------------------------------------

Only to later nonchalantly tell the family members: "Sorry, we were wrong. They are dead. Only one survived. We just spun the story because it made such a good yarn"?!?!?


Is it reasonable to presume that if those same news sources (on cable TV) who reported the above with such "impeccabble," "sober," "credible," and "factual," "journalistic integrity" as they demonstrated in the reporting of this truly horrible mine explosion tragedy, affecting not only so many families, but a whole community; that they may have also been reporting with a like "zeal" on the much less important, "personal tragedy" of Mrs. Twitty's miscreant "Girl Gone Wild" daughter gone AWOL in Aruba, which they have inordinately shoved down our collective throats for months now?!?! I would say, it would seem so, and that their reportages (spin) on the Natalee Holloway case are as worthy of our "credence" as their cruel assertions on the miners being alive were...only to later retract themselves !!! Need I say more?!?!

My Condolences to the Families of the fallen Miners!!! May the Lord be with them, and console them in this dreadful hour!!!

Their's is truly a "tragedy" and not this
"Reality TV" farce we see play on TV every night with "Beth Twitty and Friends"!!!


Althor

Posted by: Althor at January 4, 2006 5:09 PM

Lets get back to Natalee.
Girl was last seen with 3 guys.
Girl know longer seen after that.
Guys (JORAN)say they will tell you one day what really happened.
I am not a psychiatrist but for this guy to torture parents like that says a little about character not to mention but oars aren't in the water. That alone leads me to believe he is fully capable of murder. No conscience.

Do we need to really come up with conspiracys when we have good suspects at hand.

Posted by: Allan Kluttz
============================

Allan, I did not get the impression that Joran was suggesting that he would later tell someone "what eventually happened to Natalee." Instead, I think he was saying that he later would elaborate more about what he remembered about her and the things she said or way she acted that night. He said she was talking crazy, like saying her mother was Hitlers sister's daughter. What what we have heard from others her behavior that night was out of character for her that night. Perhaps he does not want to say anymore about her at this time that would cause her to be seen in a negative light. He seemed to be careful to be respectful about her and to try and say only nice things about her. I don't think he is withholding anything that he thinks would help find her or what happened to her. It seems pretty clear to me that he does not know what happened to her.

Posted by: shonane at January 4, 2006 5:15 PM

Why didn't those last seen with Natalee in the vehicle of Deepak tell the truth the moment they heard she was missing? How long did it take them to come up with the truth? What is the truth?

Where is the hard evidence that her existence continued beyond that trip in the Kalpoe vehicle that night? Where is she?

Where is the world is Natalee Holloway? Aruba. Just my humble opinion.

Her parents reported her missing. There are many missing people, just look at the FBI list. Are all those people wrong? What evidence is there that any of these people is missing? Maybe someone needs to finnish searching the dump. Just my humble opinion.

Posted by: iwabwu at January 4, 2006 6:25 PM

KC:

Please seek out a special, evening Adult class covering FBI 101 with emphasis on jurisdictional authority, or you can re-read this editorial covering the master departments of the FBI, as often as you need until you achieve some form of enlightenment. I refuse to keep answering the same question. My time is up with you!

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 8:37 PM

Well, money buys anything and I guess big money buys big things. The country is becomming a place where the "haves" and the "have nots" have a huge chasm between them and power and influence is prized. It is a frightening prospect if this case portends what is to come.

Posted by: Researcher at January 4, 2006 8:53 PM

Listen Albert. The subjects that I have talked about are not second hand most were on tv. Lets see all those receipts too, you act like you paid for most of it. You are a bigoted person. I don't waste a lot time to talk with people like you. You state your biased view without any proof and call mine not real. Put your receipts where your mouth is or shutup whatever you have or shutup. It is clear there is a problem with le there. I did not say any thing about citizens, but now i will. Believe Julia Renfro started that crap about Hitlers sister and Natalee being a slut. I know we have missing people dummy. What we don't have is a bunch of people trying to cover up the details of it.

Posted by: Allan Kluttz at January 4, 2006 9:08 PM

Allan:

"On TV" would qualify as second hand knowledge.

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 9:31 PM

@Albert: if Beth wants to find Natalee she must be in Aruba and not running around stroking rich people for money.
I agree with you asap as the will start behaving like Normal people, NO MONEY is going to drop in BETH' DAVE ' The Natalee Fund and all the sales that they are posting in the web.
Think Beth WILL never go back to Aruba. Her Natalee is the US.
Twitty/Holloways, they do not know when the people is kind, because they were looking for Natalee asking GOD no to find her. Is a lot of money in the middle.

Posted by: antoinette at January 4, 2006 9:47 PM

Hi all,
You know, Harry has always written very well researched and informative posts. We have had a nice collegial group of commenters. We do not, Alan, tell one another to "shutup". We are pleasant and when we disagree we still respect one another. It seems to me that Harry and his hosts at hyscience have been more than accomodating towards everyone interested in this debacle. Harry, in particular, has been very tolerant. Please, try to be nice to one another. Thanks from a loyal commenter.

Posted by: Little Bo Peep at January 4, 2006 9:47 PM

SNIP: According to a well-placed source on Aruba, one of the Black security guards was an informant for the Aruban police. I hope that satisfies your concerns about any Aruban botching of the case early on. Both security guards occupied cells adjacent to two of the three suspects. They both were employed as informants.

Thanks for that bit of info; it certainly shines a new light on the claims of how the Arubans "botched" the case from the beginning.


Where did you get that story? Where is your proof?
We definitely are on different pages! Harry ask Richard my source is good.

Posted by: Allan Kluttz at January 4, 2006 10:02 PM

I am sorry for telling them to shutup. Forgive me that was rude.

Posted by: Allan Kluttz at January 4, 2006 10:05 PM

Allan:

I have encouraged you to move on. What I get in the form of inside information cannot be shared with someone like you. I do not trust you. You are an abusive poster. Just move on! There are blogs quivering with anticipation to welcome your ideas and behavior.

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 10:35 PM

Mr Sharon, the Israli PM is in surgery after suffering another horrible stroke.

Coal Miners lost their loves ones.

Fires in Texas, are destroying not only wilderness, but peoples homes

Floods in California.

But hey, on "off her rocker" w/Greta Van Twitty, she once again has Beth on, to read from her Bible, er journal.

Posted by: Donna at January 4, 2006 10:43 PM

Dear Donna:

All I can surmise about Greta's "Off Her Rocker" Show is that the Kingdom of Mountain Brook must be underwriting her show.

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 11:02 PM

Harry...

Have you heard the rumor that the Twitty family and Greta's husband are or have had business dealings, get this in ARUBA? Of course Greta has denied this in her blog, however how does SHE really know what type of business dealings her hubby has. And I find it kind of funny, that she protesth way to much in her blog. She is too busy up Beth Twitty's azz, or to concerned for getting a "story" to even go on vacation with her husband. She put if off for a couple of days, so she could interview Hillary Clinton. And she said, he's used to it. Whether he is used to it or not, there is going to come a point, that he won't WANT to play second fiddle to her job.

Posted by: Donna at January 4, 2006 11:16 PM

Dear Donna:

It would be difficult for me to criticize Greta for working hard and doing things other than with her husband. I must confess that I find myself in the same boat as Greta's husband. Unfortunately, he may still have a paddle; whereas, I lost mind a long time ago.

I believe the real estate deal between Greta's husband and one of the Twittys is just a rumor. The Arubans would have publicized any substance of a real estate venture by interested Americans.

Blushing!

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 4, 2006 11:27 PM

SNIP: Max, Dayo didn't write anything like you attributed to him; I suspect your mistake may feel offensice both to Alan and him.

Posted by: George at January 4, 2006 04:00 AM

George:
I think you have me mixed up with another poster.

Posted by: Max at January 4, 2006 11:40 PM

Max, Your post at January 4, 2006 12:29 AM contains text "Posted by: dayo gould at January 3, 2006 08:32 PM" attributed to the foregoing text posted in fact by Alan and not Dayo.

Posted by: George at January 4, 2006 11:56 PM

Max, Your post at January 4, 2006 12:29 AM contains text "Posted by: dayo gould at January 3, 2006 08:32 PM" attributed to the foregoing text posted in fact by Alan and not Dayo.

Posted by: George at January 4, 2006 11:56 PM

If I did make such a mistake, then my apologies to Dayo Gould.

BTW: Are you the new board monitor, George?

Posted by: Max at January 5, 2006 1:08 AM

George, I thought this was a "Dayo/Useless Knowledge Free Zone" as per Harry, but I guess I may be wrong.

And since you do not seem in the least to object to Dayo taking advantage of this "Natalee Holloway Fiasco" to advance, basically out of context, his "bash America," "America is a Second World Country," so called "points of view" it begs the question: What, you can't get enough of him at "TUS" (Dayo's new "unofficial" site), that you must be constantly "cheering" for him here too?!?! LMAO!!!


Althor :P

Posted by: Althor at January 5, 2006 2:52 AM

Believe Julia Renfro started that crap about Hitlers sister and Natalee being a slut. I know we have missing people dummy. What we don't have is a bunch of people trying to cover up the details of it.

Stop being an idiot on this blog that has credibility. I am from Aruba and I do know Julia from Aruba Today....So if you want to discuss this come up with facts and evidences and not a simple opinion that don't have credibility. I repeat, I am from Aruba and I was involved in doing coverages in this case. Don't be fooled by one side of the story!
allan Klutsz I am sure that you don't even know the exact location of outr island, neither do you know the Twitties or the Holloways and neither do you now Julia. So shut t..f..u.. and stop being an idiot...Come to Aruba and we show you the real facts and not the stuipid stories created by Beth. I will go to Julia a.s.a.p. in order to verify your post!

Posted by: Albert at January 5, 2006 8:42 AM

To Allan Kluttz,

Our media's in Aruba did an excellent job by assisting some of your medias to mention CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC and others. Since we realize that some of them decided to lean more on the side of Beth and Jug we did not hestitate to ceased our cooperation with them. I can tell you for example that one guy of CNN decided to create a news with the title "Aruban confession". That night he stated that one of the three suspects confessed to have killed Natalee. After long hours of trying to get in contact with the authorities in Aruba, we learned that such statement and or confession never took place. This news of CNN was spreaded shortafter by Fox and other t.v. stations in the US. They never revoked and or correct this false news. Another night some of the US media decided to visit some areas in Aruba and made coverage of the darkside of Aruba. The sole purpose was to fullfill Beth decision to start a kind of war against the island. This happened two days after the national search took place. Some thousand Aruban residents took part in this search called by the government of Aruba. Some business people including a local bank start giving donations to the Equusearch in the form of cash. They ceased their good intentions because most of the members of Equusearch spend their night in the casino's, boozing and gambling and waisting the money. The Aruban police, under supervision of the Public Prosecuters Office open all the files for the FBI and also used the FBI as a important tool for their forensic investigations and their experienced in technical and tactical aspects for the good of the investigation. The Dutch experts and the FBI later on made a statement in the local press in Aruba, that the investigation team did whatever they should have done for an investigation of this type. Now comes the bad part. Meanwhile Beth and Jug, and also Dave Holloway was been informed by the local police, the FBI and even by the Prime Minister of Aruba, Beth and Jug decided on their own to bring some important information to the media, damaging the investigation and creating some contraversial topics on the talksshow such as Nancy Grace and Greta Van Susteren. The authorities decided then to stop as per inmediate, to provide more information to Beth and Jug. In the evening hours Beth and Jug was attending cocktail parties approaching some important people of Aruba for donations. I was there and some of them did ask me for my opinion. All I have to say is that in Aruba we strongly believe that this Natalee thing is nothing else then a set up. We can not tell you the reasons why, but I suggest you to travel to Alabama and try to get in contact with the students that was in Aruba and ask them who instructed them not to talk. Regarding Julie Renfrew I can tell you that she was helpfull to the family of Natalee due to her newspaper Aruba Today that helped out by atracting other tourist on Aruba to attend to the prayers and other issues besides the search and investigation. What upset me the most is that you and other participants on this blog is coming forward with comments that is based on rumors and not real facts. This is exactly the reason why so many people back in the US and even here in Aruba has been misinformed and believe that the local police is covering up for the three suspects. Let me tell you who we are. We are in the media business and we do have the proper relationship with the police department and the public prosecuters office. Since Aruba is such a small island most of the time we receive all the input from other organizations and local media members. That story of Adolf Hitler's daughter was not from Julie Renfrew. I can provide you with all the necesary numbers, fax numbers and e-mails where you can get all proper informations. In Aruba and particular in other part of the Dutch Kingdom, we are not used to involve the media in any investigations and or judicial affairs. This is for the good of the investigation and for sure to give everybody who might be involve in the investigation the space to work and to honor respect to the family of the possible victim. In the US they do all this bla bla bla for rating and not to help. That is not our style neither are we interested in doing that in the future. If it is a case that needs to have the input of the community the public relation department of the police will issued their statements and neccesary request. Or all the local media's do have their desk in the courtroom where they can attend the courtcases. The circuss, discussions without any proper informations and specially rumors are not part of our way of life and work in Aruba. This is an small island of over 100.000 people and over 80% speaks 4 languages (how many do you speak?). The Natalee affair can not be considered a crime yet. There is no evidence or proof of a crime. The Dutch Kingdom enjoys a high credibility in the world due to the presence of the International Courthouse in the Netherlands. As an Aruban I hope that you can respect our people and our judicial system. We did our part and nobody in Aruba stands above the law. There is no need for that. We seldom hear what our people did for the Twitties and the Holloways. Beth, Jug and Dave never came up in public thanking our noble community for their input, their donations and their prayers. In opposite, they were faster calling for a boycott and badtalking our judicial system as if the US has a better one. Using the media as a tool to pressure is not the most intelligent decision. I am sure that Beth can never do with any small city or town in the US with whatever she is doing to Aruba. I can re-assure you that as a member of a Aruban media, we will keep you updated with the proper informations and not with rumors and stories based out of resentments and or personal interest. We do not need to do that. I sincerly appreciate that Mr. Harry is giving me the opportunity to post my comments and on behalf of our Aruban comunity we are the utmost gratefull for that. I will react subject to your comments and I will tell you to the best of my ability as correctly as possible about all you want to know of what really happened in Aruba. God bless you all.
Albert.

Posted by: Albert at January 5, 2006 12:08 PM

Dear Albert:

You have a green light here to express yourself and the view of the Aruban people as you desire.

Thank you for your enlightening and substantive post.

With appreciation,

Harry

Posted by: harry at January 5, 2006 2:16 PM

Dear Harry,

Incidentally, I know first-hand the origin of rumor about Coale-Twitty business. It began at some private forum with the following post:
----
Date: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:45 am
Subject: Re: 7:24am in Paris and I found a major clue in the Natalee case

When I arrived at the airport yesterday, got in a cab to Paris, I found a piece of a german newspaper laying in the cab next to me. it
was the sports section and 2 pages of intl. misc. news. Being bored, I read (as far as my german took me, lol) the intl. news section, where
they talked about George T. from Mountain Brook, Alabama who's stepdaughter had been disappeared on the Caribbean Island of Aruba in teh beginning of June. Regarding the extensive media coverage, they brought up that one of the main reporters For Fox News Network Greta van Susteren has a very special connection to the case. Her husband
John P. Coale and George Twitty do have are both investors in a large real estate development in Richmond, VA. Each of them hold 25% of the
development. The other 50% are held by a group of 2 german and a dutch investor, who resides in the self-governing entity of Aruba.

Hmm, call me crazy, but that puts an interesting light on old Jug...
-----
Its author was shortly busted as a fabricator of sensational news from Tacoma, WA and expulsed from that forum. But before this Dayo managed to relay the "news" at Aruba.com message board, having omitted its intermideate source. The rumor was promtly relayed to BHS and TIR (where at the time I was not a member) and took life of its own. Surprisingly, nobody cared to retract the forum at these forums when it was determined baseless.

Posted by: George at January 5, 2006 3:42 PM

Albert,

There is no need to "verify" Alan's drivel with Julia Renfro. A number of witnesses told that Natalee Holloway compared Beth Twitty to Hitler back in July. There was related threads at some forums, e.g. http://www.scrux.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=17 .

Posted by: George at January 5, 2006 3:49 PM

"Are you the new board monitor, George?"

Max, No, I am an old one. When I see a seemingly reasonable person having posted an inaccurate statement, I try to correct it.

Posted by: George at January 5, 2006 3:58 PM

So what are you then at TUS George, and at TBHS, and others? Or is everybody talking about this Natalee Holloway "fallacy" working out of the same "Boiler Room"?!?!

I am sure your more "seemingly reasonable" posters would like to know!


Althor

Posted by: Althor at January 5, 2006 4:19 PM



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