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December 14, 2005

HarryTho 12/14 Natalee Holloway Commentary

Topics: Natalee Holloway

Let's begin tonight with commentary, then cover a couple of news items.

A popular question of late is: why Natalee ran way? This evening, let us explore the "why."
Before we commence, we have to grant that Natalee was pregnant. For those with difficulty with this assumption, they should skip this editorial and move on to other avenues of the case on other blogs.

Do we have hints that Natalee was pregnant and under stress from the pregnancy? Yes, we do. The first hint comes from a comparison of Natalee's prom picture, taken on or about 3 May 2005 with her picture taken with her girlfriends on the beach in Aruba some three weeks later. We have a clear indication of at least a 10% increase in weight. Now, the weight may not positively conclude a pregnancy; however, it does indicate a very stressful situation or a bodily dysfunction. The high percentages favor a pregnancy. I would estimate while in Aruba, Natalee was between four to five months pregnant.

A second hint came when Joran described Natalee as hysterical at the Marriott Beach. Now, most of the psychological, legal and medical experts, gracing the cable news networks, were convinced that the hysteria emanated from her being sexually assaulted. And, I believe, most, if not all, Americans bought this explanation hook, line and sinker. However, I know suspect that Natalee was hysterical about being pregnant and not desiring to return to the Holiday Inn. A return to the Holiday Inn meant a return to face the music in Mountain Book, AL.

A third hint comes when Joran describes trying to pick her up and return her to the Holiday Inn. He said that she refused. Once again, the experts of the cable news networks concluded that she was dead or near dead. I prefer to conclude that Natalee was so adamant about not returning to the Holiday Inn that she refused to allow Joran to pick her up.

By the time Joran offered to carry her to the Holiday Inn, Natalee was determined not to return. If any similarity in family stubbornness can be made, we can just imagine how determined Natalee was from the steadfastness of her mother to find her. Natalee was not moving from that spot on the Marriott Beach.

These last two paragraphs, interpreted as I have, provide an insight that Natalee Holloway made the decision to run away on the Marriott Beach. The question is whether or not Joran van der Sloot agreed to assist her. I do not think so. But, I believe that Natalee informed Joran that she was pregnant. It is upon that revelation that I believe Joran decided to split the scene.

If we grant what I have written hereinabove, we can presume that others in Mountain Brook were privy to this information. Obviously, a male counterpart had an interest in Natalee's predicament.

When Natalee first met Joran in the Excelsior Casino and introduced herself, there were a few of her girlfriends present and one of the Twitty twins (Thomas, I think). I believe all these classmates were privy to Natalee being pregnant. Yet, there was only one male classmate near Natalee. Too add to this mystery, Thomas Twitty acquired an attorney immediately upon his return to Mountain Brook from Aruba. He is also the son of Marcia Twitty, the person collecting all the cameras and issuing legal threats about any one of Natalee's classmates speaking about their travails in Aruba. Thomas was also the one quick to identify Joran van der Sloot as the person last seen with Natalee. As I recall, it was Thomas Twitty who accompanied Natalee to her prom when she maintained her svelte figure, as evidenced by her 3 May 2005 prom picture.

How do I know Joran knew Natalee was pregnant? His girlfriend, Melody, announced it recently on Dan Riehl's blog. There is only one person who could have confided in her.

Deepak Kalpoe's: "you wouldn't believe how easy it would have been that night" in response to a question about engaging in sex with Natalee, has been interpreted (by the experts) to mean that the current suspects drugged Natalee. I will conclude that Deepak Kalpoe referred to how desperate Natalee was to implicate someone in her pregnancy. Although, I am uncertain if Deepak or the other suspects were aware of Natalee's condition while they were in the car driving her around.

The silence of the Mountain Brook students, likewise, is telling. I suspect that the students would be forthcoming, if Natalee had been an evil person. She was not. I further suspect that the Mountain Brook teens would have been forthcoming, if her lover were someone that they detested, or if he were a predator. He was not. The father of Natalee's child was someone the Mountain Brook students admired and wanted to protect.

So, why did Natalee run away? She ran out of options. The blue-eyed Dutchman ditched her as soon as he realized that she was pregnant. When Joran left her on the beach, she had no other choice. She could not return to Mountain Brook in disgrace for herself and the father of the child. So, I suspect the same friends (and perhaps a few others) who encircled her at the Excelsior Casino assisted her to escape and reenter the USA.

That, in my opinion, is the reason behind the silence from Mountain Brook. That is their big secret. Natalee was pregnant, and they wanted to help her and the father of her child.

One last comment:
In the recent, alleged Natalee letter, the author comments about getting pregnant while in Aruba. From my editorial on the Roshomon Phenomenon, I hope everyone realizes that the letter is authentic from the foregoing. Natalee was pregnant prior to Aruba. The mention of getting pregnant while in Aruba is offered in order to protect the father and her classmates. Despite the foregoing, Natalee is a good person after all. It is just unfortunate that the investigation waited so long to re-interview the Mountain Brook students.

Next, from Aruba Truth, we have, "Some Facts on What is Happening in the Natalee Holloway Case":

Don't be surprised that some talk show hosts, notably Greta, have totally misinterpreted all the current events surrounding the case. Greta claimed it "looks like a panic" to Beth Twitty. To Beth's credit she was demur, awaiting the developments to unfold.

1. Assistant Chief Dompig: He's upset that his team and his efforts are not fully appreciated by the Attorney General. He is dismayed that his efforts have been condemned by Beth Twitty virtually every day. But he has worked hard to move the investigation forward. His team has decided to slow the investigation down, like a "blue flu" by cops in the States. It is expected he will remain the team leader and the "flu" will pass quickly.

2. Karin Janssen: It is rumored but not confirmed that Theresa Croes will replace Karin shortly. Karin spent all her time and effort to nail the Kalpoes and Joran. She diligently presented her case. She did the best she could with the evidence she had. Now the Attorney General may want new eyes on the case. There is no mystery here.

3. Washington Trip: There will be a small delegation headed by Adolpho Richardson to meet Alabama Congressman Spencer Bacchus. When Governor Riley slapped the boycott on his residents, cooler heads like Bacchus doubted that the evidence supported the action. So, Richardson compiled the case and will fill him in. It is a background session, not for the media.

All of this is about movement. A concerted effort to do whatever is required to determine if there is enough evidence surrounding any scenario to sustain a case before a judge.

The judiciary is not broken.

Police union enraged by writ against public speaking

ARUBA - Police union SPA is enraged by the writ against public speaking of chief of police Gerold Doming. The police are also not happy with the arrival of a new district attorney for the Holloway-case, the Aruban Leomar Angela.

On the cable, Greta of Fox News is reporting that a deadline has been set for the Natalee Holloway case. Of course, this is yet another Jossy Mansur story.

It turns out to be a 60-day ultimatum which expires in mid-January 2006. If there is no more new evidence that can move the case forward, the case will be closed and put in the closed case file.

Great held her council of Bernie Grimm, Jeff Brown, Ted Williams and Jim Hammer.

Greta commences by hinting at her dissatisfaction with being named in an Aruba Truth article. She questions their trip to Washington, DC. Bernie agrees that they should spend the money on investigating the case. But, he stresses that there is no evidence. He feels a good cold case squad could look over this case.

Ted Williams stressed that there is no evidence and that the Aruban police bungled the case. In the case of the alleged Joran confession to fondling Natalee while she was going in and out of consciousness, the confession is not enough to convict him.

Jeff Brown agreed with Ted that there is no evidence. Jeff supports Greta on the trip to Washington, DC that the Arubans should spend the money on the investigation.

Jim Hammer attempted the sexual assault line, but he was cut short by Ted Williams. Jim agreed that there is no evidence.

Comment: Clearly, the case is over in January 2006! Now that the Arubans are coming t the USA to explain the case. Greta feels that they should not come. Amazing!

With that, we'll move on to discussions in the commentary - Aloha.

Posted for HarryTho

Posted by Richard at December 14, 2005 10:26 PM

And still no one - not one single media genius has even mentioned the letter - amazing. So, they are coming to DC - just as a curtisy or do you think still it has something to do with the letter. I read somewhere today that the letter could not be verified until Jan 2006?? I too feel there is great hope that Natalee ran away and is pregnant - but it would seem a little late to plan running away on the beach, I mean some how someone might have had to help her - maybe Joran did? Also added to your reasons to think Joran knew she was pregnant add what he said in the Current Affair interview, that he would tell more, some day. That makes it sound like he knew something! I was disgusted to see good ole Greta and her minions once again talking the sexual charges against Joran for her going in and out of consciousness - I mean was she not drinking all day long, any guy could have done anything to her and I dare say they would not have been guilty of squat! Also if she was being so irresponsible about drinking and drugging or whatever down there, might that not be another indication that she was not pleased with this pregnancy? A ;pt on my mind tonite sorry for the long post.

Posted by: Jan at December 14, 2005 11:10 PM

Natalee's prom date was not Thomas Twitty, but Henry Ennis. Follow this link to the picture from The Sydney Morning Herald

Posted by: Gofer at December 14, 2005 11:13 PM

Dear Gofer:

Thank you for the link to Natalee's prom picture. I was referring to an arrangement that Beth Twitty had set up for Thomas Twitty to take Natalee to some function. What that function was, I forget. I thought it was some form of prom.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 14, 2005 11:21 PM

To All:

The 60-day ultimatum story is from none other than Jossy Mansur. Whatever we may think of Jossy, there is always a kernel of truth in his revelations. Despite his past performance, we learn this evening and from other media sources that the prosecution was given 60 days to discover new evidence that would revitalize the case. However, that 60-day notice was given about or month or more ago by the Attorney General to the chief prosecutor. It is conceivable that the 60 days are up this week.

As for the promulgation of the Natalee letter's authentication, I have not read or heard anything to date. To me, the early returns are already in by the actions of the Aruban authorities: it has been authenticated.

As reported the trip to Washington, DC will be a no-holds-barred, in depth brief of the case to Congressman Bacchus. Congressman Bacchus will be first to be told of the letter's authentication and other tasty details of the case.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 14, 2005 11:25 PM

I read somewhere today that the letter could not be verified until Jan 2006??

Posted by: Jan at December 14, 2005 11:10 PM

That just doesn't sound right to me. Did they state why it would be taking that long, Jan?

Posted by: Max at December 14, 2005 11:39 PM

Dear Max:

Between the meeting with Congressman Bacchus and the alleged promulgation of the authentication of the Natelee letter comes Christmas and New Years, our winter holiday season. It is also the time when everyone is home for the holidays (Joran). I believe the timing says it all.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 14, 2005 11:46 PM

It is also the time when everyone is home for the holidays (Joran). I believe the timing says it all.
Posted by: harry at December 14, 2005 11:46 PM

Well, just color me dense because I'm still not getting it. Why would Joran being home have to do with not releasing the results of the tests until Jan?

Posted by: Max at December 14, 2005 11:57 PM

SNIP: I will let your mind wander over the implications of what might drive a lynch mob mentality to do ... Aruba being so close to Alabama and all.
Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 12:29 AM

Thanks for taking the time to explain that (perhaps if you had used crayons instead of a keyboard I would have gotten it the first time around, lol).
Joe M is the first person that comes to mind, when I think about anything happening to the three suspects.

Posted by: Max at December 15, 2005 1:12 AM

I beg to differ from ur opinion that natalee ran away. If however she was pregnant, maybe four or five months, i suspect she was given the date rape drug and gang raped. This could have lead her to have a miscarriage (thereby joran's statement that she was hysterical), and eventually her death. The boys could have panicked which is why there are the lies from the boys from the very beginning. Although, maybe an accidental death, if they had reported it, they still would have been charged with gang rape. Therefore, the need to dispose of the body. It makes no sense that if a person was four to five months pregnant, that she would want to have consensual sex with three boys. Dont forget, from the Jamie skeeter's tapes, deepak does not seem to have anything good to say about her except blame her for his eventual incaceration.

The other alternative would be for the boys to make her disappear. I wouldn't be surprised with this alternative and if she were still alive and being hidden somewhere, they could easily force her to write the letter and apply her dna on it so as to make it believable that the boys were innocent otherwise i find it very difficult to believe that Paulus VDS would keep this letter for so long and not clear his son of the deed. It somehow appears to me that the letter is the last resort to clear his son and it has been thought of just recently otherwise it would not have been withheld for such a long time expecially with her dna on it. Things are getting very hot - so anything goes!!! I still think that this letter is a set up at the last minute.

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 1:17 AM

SNIP: Although, maybe an accidental death, if they had reported it, they still would have been charged with gang rape.
Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 01:17 AM


SNIP: Dont forget, from the Jamie skeeter's tapes, deepak does not seem to have anything good to say about her except blame her for his eventual incaceration
Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 01:17 AM


SNIP: I wouldn't be surprised with this alternative and if she were still alive and being hidden somewhere, they could easily force her to write the letter and apply her dna on it so as to make it believable that the boys were innocent
Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 01:17 AM


SNIP: i find it very difficult to believe that Paulus VDS would keep this letter for so long and not clear his son of the deed.


Posted by: Max at December 15, 2005 1:39 AM

Dear Sue,

The gangrape and miscarriage theory of yours doesn't add up. It would have been very messy and would have left traces (certainly if it all occured in the lighthouse or some fisherman's hut. Blood can be traced even if the surface has been thoroughly cleaned!

Aruba is a small island. Where would they hide a girl for six months? If your thesis is correct than Natalee being raped and having had a miscariage is in need of medical attention.

If the letter does contain DNA of Natalee than it is safe to assume she wrote it herself out of her own free will. The reason why it has been keep a "secret" for so long? Well, Paulus and the ALE (maybe even the FBI) must have thought is was a hoax. Paulus might have found it when he was collecting his hate-mail. According to the letter the FBI and Beth was send a simular letter. The could have informed the ALE about it, but because the ALE already decided that the letter was a hoax they didn't do anything with it. Until the three extra's arrived an started to go over the case. They probably decided that it was a good idea to authenticate the letter.
I agree with Harry that the letter is authentic. It was just revealed to early to the public. If the letter was a hoax we would already know.

The ALE is probably doing the following things:
They are wrapping up the case, because it is no longer an Aruban Affair. Natalee is in the USA, so the ALE is making a file for the FBI. It is possible that certain things have ben set in motion. Police patroling they area where Natalee is hiding. Police following suspects in the USA. In the mean time they try to keep the publics eye on Aruba, to lull the real suspects in a false sense of safety. Like they did with Scott Peterson.

I realize now that this post is getting very long so I'll stop, but this is what I believe..

Merry Christmas to All !!

Posted by: Also_Dutch at December 15, 2005 2:00 AM

Dear Also_Dutch,

If the letter was natalee's n she wrote it on her own free will, it means she ran away on her own accord, why then the need for the lies from those boys. It isnt as though they were best friends of hers that they had to help her run away and lie for her. In the scott peterson's case, there was no evidence found until her body washed up on the shores whereas in natalees case, if it was done at the beach, it would have been easier to discard of any potential evidence esp. with others to help. You could even discard that lump of sand where or if the blood was, into a bag n let it flow into the river. It is much easier to get rid of such evidence on a beach than it is for scott peterson whom i believe acted alone. Something still doesnt add up.

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 4:13 AM

Although, maybe an accidental death, if they had reported it, they still would have been charged with gang rape. Therefore, the need to dispose of the body. It makes no sense that if a person was four to five months pregnant, that she would want to have consensual sex with three boys. Dont forget, from the Jamie skeeter's tapes, deepak does not seem to have anything good to say about her except blame her for his eventual incaceration.

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 01:17 AM

Sue, you're a regular poster at Scared Monkeys. I suggest you wander back that way and perhaps stay there. If you take a deep breath or two, and open your mind, I surely hope that even you could imagine Deepak Kalpoe being as irritated at the Beth Twitty Foundation as the rest of the island was at that time, and publicly spoke the TRUTH about how Natalee was acting and looked that night. You could surely imagine as well that he was angry at the insults from the "Foundation" about himself and more than likely said this publicly to slap Beth Twitty in the face. Has this ever crossed your petite little mind? I don't imagine so. I've read your posts on Scared Monkeys and you're a brainwashed redneck "Foundation" follower. You believe ANYTHING that comes out of that woman's mouth and have a mind so narrow that a human cell with radar and sonar couldn't get from one end of it to the other.

Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 15, 2005 6:47 AM

To Jim Hanson,

That just goes to show what a bird brain you have.
Instead of accusing anyone of being a "brainwashed redneck Foundation Follower" which you obviously are except from the other point of view, i suggest that you try not to assume too much as you have just made an "asshole of yourself". I have never posted on Scaredmonkeys except for once giving my opinion so how could you have read my "posts" as in plural. "Having a mind so narrow" - excuse me, are you referring to yourself? I am just a regular reader of this mystery and am just stating my opinion which is what everyone has been doing including the writer Harry Tho. And how may I ask that you know that Deepak is stating the "TRUTH" unless you are in this collaboration yourself in not wanting to find out the truth. So my little bird brain with a small dicky bird, shut your gap and think before you speak coz you sound like someone with such an incapable mental ability, unable to differentiate that there are people in this world who have their own minds and will not be manipulated or intimidated by people who think they know it all and is not open to listening to opinions of others. Incidentally, I am not even from america or aruba but just an avid reader of mysterie, so please take your radars and sonars and point it at yourself and may some intelligence will come out of the cells in your brain.

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 7:27 AM

Sue and Jim,
As you both know, we don't ban people here at Hyscience (except for inappropriate language), we like to encourage dialogue - even when it isn't always as productive as it could be with a little bit more courtesy than is exhibited from time to time.

But in the interest of community and the enjoyable participation by all who wish to do so, it would be nice if we all try to avoid being personal with our opinions, and stick to addressing the issues rather than each other.

I enjoy hearing from both of you, but enjoy it more when you are voicing your opinions directed at the issues, rather than at each other.

Posted by: Richard at December 15, 2005 7:56 AM

To Richard,

Thank you Richard. I only did it because Jim Hanson started being personal and had to be put in his place. I enjoy reading mysteries and enjoy reading all the different opinions but when it becomes personal, I must admit I do get mad!!!
I am on nobody's side, just looking at all different angles and maybe if each and every one of us looks at it in our own way, some good may come out of it - it is meant to be developed upon and not for people to attack us for raising our opinions. If I have offended you in any way, I am sorry but I just had to give Jim Hanson a piece of my mind for being personal and so enclosed in his own little world and he does not realise that there is a whole world out there - not just america and aruba.

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 8:14 AM

No offense taken whatsoever, all of us need to let loose now and then. And all of us can use a gentle reminder that most of the time, but of course not all of the time, civility and reason win out over personalities.

That of course assumes one is dealing with a civil and reasonable person - something I have to admit is not always the case. But usually, I've found most people (again, not all) to be potentially, if given the choice and opportunity, nice people.

Posted by: Richard at December 15, 2005 8:32 AM

So many teenagers that committ suicide, the parents and friends are always left asking why?

Most of these suicides are from young teenagers, that also have a promising future, get good grades, honor roll students, that have never been in trouble with the law, or never have shown outright depression or having emotional problems. They suffer in silence.

I have seen it been asked, WHY would Natalee committ suicide, when she had a promising future. Scholarship to college for pre-med, talented, smart, responsible. What would of drove Natalee to such dispair, to possibly take her own life?

So I will ask these questions:

How much did the divorce, of her parents affect Natalee?
Was her father an absentee parent?
Did Natalee feel abandonment, when her father remarried and had children with another woman?
Was Natalee, along with her brother Matt, used as pawns, in this divorce?
What IS the real relationship between Beth and Natalee?
What is/was Natalee's relationship with her father?
Did Beth vicariously live through her own daughter, and the need to re-live her teenage years through her own daughter?
Was she a pushy, demanding, manipulative mother?

What about when Jug Twitty entered their lives?
Was Natalee happy with her mothers new husband?
What was Natalee's relationship with Jug?

What was Natalee's life in Mississippi?
Was she a happy child?
Did she resent having to move to another state, leaving her father, friends, family, and everything that was NORMAL in her life?
Natalee was 13, when she was uprooted from everything she knew, at that time, a young girl is going from her change from child to adult, how did this added stress affect her?
Did Natalee EVER express to anyone, how she would just like to "go away".
How was she "coached" by Jug?
Was she tired of living up to another persons perception of PERFECT?
How did she fit in with the MB crowd? Was she an outcast? Was she welcomed in that "peer" group?
Did Natalee form REAL friendships? Or were these people just her fellow school mates or aquaintances that just went to school with.Did she really connect with anyone?
What about her friends in mississippi, did she remain in contact with anyone?
Was Beth and Matt, her only REAL family that she had any real close ties to?
How did it feel to Natalee, to be moving into JUGS home? Was she reminded all the time that it was HIS house?

Did Natalee get along or feel welcomed in her father and Robins house, or was she considered a "guest"?
What was Natalee's relationship or how she felt about her half-siblings?

What IF anything did Natalee divuldge to anyone, her feelings, wants, needs?
Did Natalee WANT to go to medical school..or was that EXPECTED of her, just because Jugs children are in the medical field...and that is just the way it was in that household. You are expected to go into some type of medical field?

Was Natalee lonely?
Was Natalee, depressed?
Was Natalee on any type of medication for depression?
Has Natalee ever gone through counseling?
Has Natalee, ever Run Away before?
Was Natalee really excited about going off to college?

Posted by: Donna at December 15, 2005 10:29 AM

The two articles at web sites below from the 12/15 05 Birmingham News detail

1) Spencer Bachus predisposition in the Holloway Case,
Note D A Barber tried a cop killer and could not get a death sentence from a jury in 2005.
Barber has not personally tried a case in years until 2005. Alabama elect DA based on
conviction rate.

Bachus, R-Vestavia Hills, requested the meeting with Aruban officials to find out more
about the long-running investigation of Holloway's disappearance on the Caribbean island.
He has said that he had the impression that Aruban authorities hadn't done all they could
to investigate the case.

I don't know whether the Arubans will satisfy me or not," he said. "I don't think they've
done a great job. I think that's pretty obvious."

On Wednesday he said that three Aruban representatives will join him, Jefferson County
DA David Barber, Shelby County DA Robby Owens and Russell Yawn, chief investigator
for the Alabama District Attorney's Association.

Bachus said he invited Barber and Owens to lend their expertise and that they
recommended Yawn as "somebody who was a bulldog of an investigator."

I'm going to basically leave it to two guys who have prosecuted cases very
vigorously and successfully to tell me what needs to be done," Bachus said.

Bachus said the Arubans expected to attend are Deputy Police Chief Dolf Richardson,
police analyst Renato Emerencia, and attorney Arlene Ellis-Schipper.

2) Twitty response to Vanity Fair Article.

Wild partying, a lot of drinking, lots of room-switching every night," Dompig said. "We
know the Holiday Inn told them they weren't welcome next year." He also said Holloway
herself drank alcohol "all day every day."

Twitty, who didn't address the statements directly, said Dompig should concentrate on the
investigation and criminal activities instead.

Twitty said she expects to be more cautious in talking to reporters in the future.

I think it's going to make me so much more guarded," she said. "It's a risk, a lesson learned."

Why not abortion if pregnant. The abortion services in Birmingham are constantly monitored by anti abortion groups who do film those entering and because of bombings of abortion clinics in Birmingham the clinics have outside cameras as well as entry. The main Birmingham abortion clinic is a short distance from where Beth twitty worked. Now a trip to Mexico via Aruba would allow for the deed to be done and then a qucik trip to Arkansas to recuperate.

Posted by: paul at December 15, 2005 11:00 AM

Dear Sue & Paul:

On the abortion issue, there is one anomaly in the case that has always bothered me. A Jossy Mansur witness, a gardener, claimed that he saw Joran van der Sloot and Deepak Kalpoe near the Racquet Club around 3:00 AM. Joran, I am told, was a member of that club. Being a member, he may have known who hangs around the club in the early morning hours. If Joran knew that a physician friend of his dad's would be at the Racquet Club, he might have enlisted the physician's assistance in helping Natalee with her predicament. Maybe that is why Deepak and he were waiting in the rear of the club at 3:00 AM.

If the abortion required some rest time for Natalee, then that might explain why a classmate, privy to the abortion, claimed that Natalee would not be returning on the scheduled flight. She just needed some time to rest in order to catch another flight. The father of the child might have paid for the later flight in order to confuse the Mountain Brook chaperones. In the meantime, the Twitty posse lands in Aruba and commences infiltrating the scene, disrupting the Natalee's escape schedule.

Of course, I must add that I never believed Jossy Mansur's gardener.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 11:53 AM

It’s too bad that you totally discount the false testimony of Jossy’s gardener, as that scenario you suggest could add a few final, faltering steps to the vanishing.

Ignoring the computer evidence (perhaps also falsified?) that places Joran and Deepak in front of their keyboards at 3:00 a.m., I can readily believe that Aruba’s abortionists frequent racquet clubs in the wee hours of the morning, as that must be the regular time that desperate Americans (miraculously sobered up and with teeth freshly brushed) take last-minute measures to remove unwanted, months-old foetuses that could interfere with their carry-on weight allowances.

Would this early-morning practitioner have a spare set of the tools of his trade stowed in his locker at the club, and is the ladies’ loo fully equipped to handle the exigencies of botched cleansings? An ambulance, parked full time at the club, could be explained away as just being there to handle wrenched knees (no mention of wrecked wombs).

I like this, Harry, as it also explains why the pond was drained—that is where the scrapings are always dumped. I better call Beth and the Religious Right: rape is nothing compared to the sin of being involved with the procuring of an abortionist’s services

Posted by: Dayo Gould at December 15, 2005 1:51 PM

Merry Christmas from The Unusual Suspects

Batty got run over by a reindeer,
flying home from Aruba Christmas Eve.
You can say there's no such thing as karma,
but as for me and my buddies, we believe.

The cable news was quiet...
Greta, Dan, and Rita sighed,
For there's no ratings without Batty
Might as well go home and cry!!!

Natalee wrote us all a letter...
She tells us all that she's alive!
She licked the stamp and told us to test it!
And to wait for the baby to arrive...

Chief Dompig waits for Skeeters,
A jail cell is set aside for him,
Come drink beer and have some dinner
Before we you lock you up in the pen!

Batty is contemplating running,
This time with no call to the FBI,
For they now know the Aruba thing was all for sunning,
and Batty's story was nothing but a lie.

Welcome little Holloway!
It kind of looks like Uncle Matt,
Grandma, we need another Tundra!
All decked out for Baby and Nat!

It was three weeks after Christmas,
as the Twitts arose from the sack
they heard the cries of a baby,
My God, sounds like Natalee's back!!

Jugs grabbed his DNA kit
Beth the Bible bound in calfskin
and they rushed to the kitchen
to welcome the new baby in.

They stopped dead in the doorway,
erasing their shat-eating grin,
"you got the wrong address, lady,
that kid got dark-coloured skin."

To which Natalee responded,
"I'm only here for cash.
You ruined my reputation,
Proving ya'll are just plain trash."

Dayo, have a prayer card,
Your articles make Batty pissed
She has erased them off of Google,
And let Patty top her list!

J2K are innocent.
Murder, rape, there is no proof.
We are grateful to Arlene,
And all the rest of ArubaTruth!

Which brings us back to Adrienne
and the Unusual Suspect crew
who helped unglue Arubu
from the proverbial doggie-doo.

The Unusual Suspects

Posted by: bvctrtc at December 15, 2005 2:13 PM

Dear Dayo Gould:

Despite the humor in your post, I never theorized that the physician (not abortionist) performed the abortion in the Racquet Club. If we remove the dark shadows of your post, the Racquet Club does offer a clandestine opportunity in which to consult for an abortion. The boys, parked outside in the rear of the club, could have been waiting to bring Natalee to an appropriate location for the procedure.

Please keep in mind that I do not put much faith in this scenario, but it does offer possibilities, if certain other facts of record, in contradistinction, can be explained away.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 3:01 PM

The side tangents distract from a simple truth- the simplest story is usually the right one. The kids and Natalee were 18, out to party AND VULNERABLE TO SOMEONE WHO WOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OR CHARM THEM. eNTER PRIVELEGED KID AND FRIENDS THAT SHE LEAVES WITH who may have a sense of entitledment. The LASt ones to be seen with her. (Any Gut feeling there?) They said first they dropped her back at the Holiday Inn which turned out to be a lie. Then suddenly she was inviting it and they spoke of her in crude language. Trust me, Alabama is the Bible belt in the US and conservative. Then suddenly they left her at the beach. Also phone records are major in murder cases and Jorans phone records and calls to Deepak and Paulus at 3AM are suspicious. We just want to know the truth for us and her parents and for the people of Aruba to get justice for their beautiful island that is being dragged thru the mud by those that will not come forward. There are no coincidences in murder cases. The truth is simple and stands clear to us.

Posted by: aran at December 15, 2005 3:12 PM

If I have offended you in any way, I am sorry but I just had to give Jim Hanson a piece of my mind for being personal and so enclosed in his own little world and he does not realise that there is a whole world out there - not just america and aruba.

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 08:14 AM

Sue, I am Canadian, and sorry, you ARE a regular poster at Scared Monkeys. I used to waste my time trying to talk to people like you there a long time ago. And I DO recognize your posting "style".

Surely to God you remember me. I'm one of the few ex posters there that made any sense, had an open mind, and didn't accuse people of anything unless I had proof.

End of story ...

Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 15, 2005 3:26 PM

Sorry Sue, one more quick item to look at that I failed to add above. Your two posts here obviously prove that you are still stuck on accusing these three suspects of rape, murder and disposing of evidence. I used to try and reason with people like you when I once posted at SM, suggesting that statements such as these are slanderous without proof ... proof by the way that still doesn't exist anywhere. I gave up posting on SM, because all the rednecks called me Aruban for simply thinking within reason. I'll say it once more and never speak about you again. If you're still trying to hound people about the suspects raping and murdering Natalee Holloway, then you obviously believe the Twitty Foundation and whatever she claims to be true in this case, which by the way, ISN'T. If you would do a little research, you would find that Beth T has been caught in many lies to date. She even lied more than once before getting on a plane to Aruba to try and find out what happenned to her daughter, ok?

Final thought Sue: Don't hang any suspects and claim the Arubans are all corrupt without PROOF.

I won't say another word about this. I think my point is very clear.

Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 15, 2005 4:05 PM

Dear aran:

The entire composite of your assumptions of this case rely on two items: the boys lied and they were last one's to admit being seen with Natalee. That is it in a nutshell.

First, if we relied on lying as a bellwether, then Beth Twitty should be the prime and possibly only suspect. As I have written before, the boys maintain no monopoly on lying in this case. Besides, their excuse is plausible.

Second, from the time Joran allegedly left Natalee on the beach, there remains at least three hours (possibly more) that are unaccounted for Natalee. Joran and the Kalpoe brothers have an alibi on record for 3 AM and conceivably onwards. You tell me: Is it possible that Natalee wandered about Aruba for three hours and never ran into someone else? That is the position of the Alabama gang. And, the Aruban police have at least two, possibly three, declarations that Natalee was seen around the Holiday Inn after 3 AM on the morning in question.

Lastly, the Aruban prosecution has failed to nail the boys, despite months of interrogation. Either they do not know what happened to Natalee, or three teenagers, from a small island, outwitted some of the best interrogative minds in the world. Justice has played all her cards with respect to the three suspects.

Now, my gut feeling, after six months, is that the Aruban prosecution spent too much time barking up the wrong tree. My gut feeling is that the right tree resides in Mountain Brook, AL.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 4:08 PM

The reviews for the last month - boycott time are majority positive. Most from Notheast, midwest, and europe.
There is one from Alabama- they liked it.

Posted by: paul at December 15, 2005 4:39 PM

Harry, you have stooped to a new low here. This is purely made up crap!

#1 Natalee's date for the prom was not Thomas Twitty!

#2 someone who is 5 months pregnant would be showing and I don't think they would have worn a bikini on this trip!

I hope you have trouble sleeping over this one!


Posted by: flagmom at December 15, 2005 5:24 PM


Do you really believe that the letter has been authenticated and the Aruban LE is going to turn everything over to the FBI during this time in DC?

Any rumblings about possible sightings of Natalee in the US, even gross speculation?

I certainly hope they release some information after they meet in the US, even if it is generic. It is strange how quiet the Beth/Jug camp has been since the release of this letter; I wonder what is up with them??

Posted by: moey at December 15, 2005 5:24 PM

Dear Flagmom:

We always appreciate and enjoy the cordial posts from Alabama. Every now and then, we need to be reminded how truly pleasant and socially-proper you people truly are.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 5:41 PM

Dear moey:

This meeting will be a real barnburner. Congressman Bacchus will hear the whole story. I do not believe the congressman will leave the meeting too pleased with the frankness.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 5:45 PM

IF that linkage picture of Natalie with her prom date is her 4-5 months pregnant, well, I have a bit of a hard time with that.

Look closely, and what I don't see are some of the 'usual' signs of pregnancy at 4-5 months. There just does not seem to me to be signs of a baby within. I have been through three pregnancies with my wife closely, participating in Lamaze, and less closely but visibly with many friends.

But maybe she's atypical? Am I off base here? what do you think?

Posted by: david macleod at December 15, 2005 6:05 PM

Dear david macleod:

What do I think? I think you need an emergency course in remedial reading, or maybe you should work on your story about those three pregnancies that you experienced.

You know, david, there are other sites that I am certain would appreciate your shallow comments.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 6:17 PM

Harry, Have you ever even been to Alabama? I am sure you will have a "truly pleasant and socially proper" response! Flagmom expressed 2 comments related to the issues. Yes, she did seem to get personal before signing off and as Richard said in an earlier post today, as posters we should stick to voicing our opinions on the issues without personally attacking each other. The sarcasm in your response though seems to be a dig at all the people who live in the state of Alabama. Couldn't you respond to her post without doing that? Responses like that take away from what you are trying to accomplish.

Posted by: JEWELS at December 15, 2005 6:24 PM

Touch, touchy - I only put forward a question...

Posted by: david macleod at December 15, 2005 7:00 PM

Dear jewels:

I have never been to Alabama or Aruba. However, after six months, I know the position of most of the residents of Alabama, or at least the most boisterous one, now don't I? You may disagree, but, to me, it is precisely that attitude that has endeared this case so long down the wrong alley and tossed people into jail. In that respect, my comments are on point.

All I can convey, with sincerity, to flagmom and you is that if you fear the sound of the big guns, then you should not be meandering around the firing line.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 7:10 PM

This pretty far-fetched. If Natalee ran away, how would she support herself without being identified ? I don't think she could live in secret for long, especially if she was pregnant. No, I think Natalee simply OD'd. The boys were probably involved in the drugs, and were probably most ungentlemanly when she was in and out of consciousness. Basic frat party stuff. Then she died. Basic frat party stuff. The only wrinkles are papa sloot ditching the body, and the corrupt police willing to sweep it under the rug for almighty tourism. No, Natalee is not in the US. She off the continental shelf in a wire fish cage, a relatively short boat ride from the fisherman's huts.

Posted by: david r at December 15, 2005 9:01 PM

Dear david r:

The fish cage theory was disproved a long time ago. Actually, there is no declaration indicating that a fish cage was even missing from the Fisherman huts, despite rumors abounding to the contrary. The ocean waters around Aruba have been sufficiently searched. There is no body out there on the ocean floor.

The exists no declaration that any of the suspect dealt in drugs. Paulus van der Sloot has been cleared of all suspicions in the case.

As for support of Natalee, a family with friends with private jets and the affluence to travel around the country as they choose seems likely to have friends that would lend a hand in order to support Natalee. As the investigation unfolds in Mountain Brook, I suspect, that we will get to know them.

I encourage you to peruse our blog. We have exposed in detail many of your questions.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 15, 2005 9:16 PM

Harry: Can you be a little more specific about the 'barnburner?'

I have come to believe that Natalee is probably alive somwhere, I'm not sure in the US, but I do think she is alive. I'm not positive she is pregnant either, but it is a very viable conclusion when you add up all the little bits and pieces of information.

I've never bought the theory that these three young men, even with the help of powerful elders, could have pulled off the perfect crime with absolutely no forensic evidence left behind whatsoever. It seems to me there would have been a scrap of something found whether it was a hair clip, earring, shoe, button, something somewhere would have turned up.

I've always been suspicious of the MB teens, parents, so-called chaperones and of course Beth and Jug and their relatives for absolutely clamping down on any information whatsoever coming out of the MB people. Why Beth was ever allowed to go into her room at the HI and go through her things before the police had a chance to seal and go through the room themselves, I'll never understand. It appears that no formal written and recorded statements were ever taken from the students/chaperones before they were allowed to leave the island. And why her close friends just left the island without SOMEONE staying behind to help look for or find out why she didn't make the plane is just beyond my comprehension. I can't imagine leaving a foreign country if my best friend was missing on a trip. It just doesn't add up. To me 4 and 4 are equaling 15 in this investigation.

Do you think the FBI is being called into the meeting tomorrow in DC? Why is everything so quiet on Fox and other stations? I assume tomorrow will be an interesting day. Thanks for the opportunity to speak up. Moey

Posted by: MOEY at December 15, 2005 10:28 PM

Flagmom thought it unreasonable that Harry mentioned that Natalee could have been 4-5 months pregnant at the time of the trip.
I don't find it unreasonable, and neither will you if you think hard enough of any of your friends, etc, with FIRST pregnancies, esp those who have been physically strong like Natalee (muscles toned from all the dance practice). With my first, I didn't start showing until mid half of 5 months, no pot belly at 5 months, and delivered a 7 pounder.
I believe she could have been at least 4 months.
Also, I had read her prom date was Ennis.

Posted by: i perp at December 15, 2005 11:33 PM

Sue, I am Canadian, and sorry, you ARE a regular poster at Scared Monkeys. I used to waste my time trying to talk to people like you there a long time ago. And I DO recognize your posting "style".

Surely to God you remember me. I'm one of the few ex posters there that made any sense, had an open mind, and didn't accuse people of anything unless I had proof.

End of story ...

Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 15, 2005 03:26

NO!!! I dont remember reading any of your postings on Scaredmonkeys so obviously you have not made an impact like you think you have and obviously u do not deserve the credit of recognizing anyones's posting style as you have got mine wrong as I have only posted once on Scaredmonkeys so stop making yourself look smarter than you actually are because it is getting to be laughable. I normally pay a lot of attention to the writers who own the site re their opinions and whatever facts they have and then quickly glance through all the opinions by the "posters" who directly post on the issues at hand and i always try to avoid reading posters like yours that get too personal and forget that a lot of people are just giving "theories." Self Praise is no praise and only u yourself think you are making sense - others may not - so accept it!!

Posted by: sue at December 15, 2005 11:34 PM

Sue I made my point. Why did you bother to reply? You accuse people of rape murder etc without any proof. Your two initial posts here have been ripped to shreds by other users already. Don't you get the hint? I think everyone else here does.


Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 16, 2005 12:01 AM

Sue I made my point. Why did you bother to reply? You accuse people of rape murder etc without any proof. Your two initial posts here have been ripped to shreds by other users already. Don't you get the hint? I think everyone else here does.


Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 16, 2005 12:01 AM

To Jim Hanson,

Your understanding of the english language is obviously below par. If you read my two posts, they are just mere opinions and theories, searching for answers from every angle and wanting answers from every question asked. A step by step way to get each suspect out of the way helped by responses and facts n answers which support or does not support it in order to see the point of the other posters. When one has been satisfied, then one moves on to the other scenarios one by one at a time and should not create confusion by lumping everything together. My original postings has not been "ripped to shreds" as you so put it, it has been opened to other answers, opinions and questions by other posters who see it differently. Some points by other posters may convince one and some wont - this is all part and parcel of observing all the different views, opinions and theories and coming to a conclusion yourself. Meanwhile, you have been proven wrong in the way you present yourself and it is my right if i want to reply, you do not own this site!!! So please have a huff and a puff and build a bridge and get over it.

Posted by: sue at December 16, 2005 1:08 AM

Sue, you can carry on here forever with your childlike remarks ... this thread is dead now. Grow up and let's move on to the next one, ok? I already have and won't be coming back to this one. Ok?

You sure can't take any criticism, can you ...

Bye for now sweety ...

Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 16, 2005 3:21 AM

Sue, you can carry on here forever with your childlike remarks ... this thread is dead now. Grow up and let's move on to the next one, ok? I already have and won't be coming back to this one. Ok?

You sure can't take any criticism, can you ...

Bye for now sweety ...

Posted by: Jim Hanson at December 16, 2005 03:21 AM


Posted by: sue at December 16, 2005 4:29 AM

Dear Jim & Sue:

You two really need to cease fire.

With Aloha,


Posted by: harry at December 16, 2005 5:29 AM

Those are my sentiments, exactly!

Posted by: Richard at December 16, 2005 7:01 AM

Hi Harry and Richard,

I understand but Jim Hanson contradicts the one thing that he stands for and that is "not to convict anyone without proof." To sum it all up, I will now disclose that there is already a poster named "Sue" (who is american I think) in scaredmonkeys. I posted under my initials and surname so as not to confuse myself with her on the one and only post I gave on that site. He should practice what he preaches dont you think? Otherwise, how can anyone respect an opinion given by a person who accuses somebody of something that he himself is totally against!!!

Posted by: sue at December 16, 2005 12:27 PM

Hang in there Sue. Don't get discouraged.

Posted by: tannerfly at December 16, 2005 1:52 PM

well came to check out opinions on the Holloway case but decided to read all postings thx to the Sue / Jim discord (btw, SUE, its great you do not break stride! But dont stroke his ego with too many replies ... it is obvious he uses bantering and accusations to get attn. Just like my 19 year old does!) hmmm...

Posted by: noblogger at December 26, 2005 1:55 AM

It makes no sense... If she were 4 months pregnant upon her arrival to Aruba, wouldn't the baby have arrived for months now? We are now at the end of December, beginning of January. How does this fit in with the mysterious letter?

Posted by: sylvie at December 28, 2005 5:58 PM

Were the whereabouts of all the students and chaperones from the trip accounted for on the night of Natalee's disappearance? I am asking as it seems more likely that the mysterious letter came from one of her classmates who would have easy access to her DNA from a variety of sources. After growing up together, they would know her writing style, how she interacted with her family and all sorts of other insider information including trip details.

At the very least, it seems unlikely that anyone would deliberately remain hidden all this time without support from fellow conspirators. This would be a heavy guilt load: the fate of three Aruban men have been hanging in the balance, the reputation of them and their parents have been torn to shreds, a country's economic viability has been threatened, the lives of her parents and step brother have been plunged into a constant state of turmoil filled with harsh criticism and accusations...

It is wide-sweeping damage that seems a whole lot more public (the world is privvy to the situation now) than letting your parents know you are pregnant. The ramifications of coming forward now would also be a lot more serious considering all the mischief and damage wrought.

Posted by: sylvie at December 28, 2005 6:21 PM

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