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October 14, 2005

HarryTho 10/14 Natalee Holloway Update and Commentary

Topics: Natalee Holloway

Lots of interviews tonight, but little substance. So we'll start with the cable interviews, then work our way down to research updates on the possible scenarios involving AmSouth issues that may or may not have something to do with Natalee's disappearance, but so far seem a little beyond a point of being mere coincidence.

And I believe that from what we've seen so far concerning the AmSouth facet of possible laundering connections to Aruban - related individuals has, to say the very least, turned up some extremely interesting "coincidences."

Tonight, Rita Crosby of MSNBC News hosted Gerald Dompig, Dave Holloway and Jimmy Skeeter. The issue was the Skeeter tapes of Deepak Kalpoe, which Dave just hopes can be used by the Aruban police.

Rita queried Police Chief Dompig on his use of the tapes. He responded that three things had to be done concerning the tapes use in the case: 1) receive the tapes from the FBI, 2) verify the tapes for authenticity and 3) get the tapes entered into evidence.

Rita asked if the Twitty-Holloway group would be willing to pay Deepak for information on Natalee. Dave felt that the family would be willing to do that.

Rita played the tapes and the same lines were aired again. After the tapes aired, Jimmy Skeeter stated that prior to the tapes commencing, Deepak Kalpoe had indicated to him that Joran killed Natalee. Then Jimmy referenced a later conversation on the tape in which Deepak states that Joran killed Natalee. Police Chief Dompig sounded excited with the news, but he reserved comment until he received the tapes and verified their accuracy.

My comment about what Jimmy Skeeter revealed is that the way Deepak Kalpoe responded sounded more like he was providing a possibility rather than a fact. In the same manner in which Joran hypothesized about Deepak killing Natalee, we have a similar situation here. Deepak says, "Well, it wasn't me or Satish, so who else is left?" (or words tot hat effect) Then Jimmy Skeeter says, "Joran." Deepak responds "Yeah." That is hardly a confession or a statement of confidence, but it stimulates good air time ratings!

Rita then asked what question Dave Holloway would like to ask Police Chief Dompig. Despite all the pre-show hoopla, Dave Holloway says "No."

Jimmy Skeeter closed with a statement that Deepak was willing to take a polygraph; however, Deepak was re-arrested before the polygraph could be taken.

Dave just referred to the entire Joran and Deepak fiasco as a pack of lies.

My comment to Dave Holloway is that we quite possibly could be pressuring a group of kids who truly have no idea what happened to Natalee. Their responses seem disjointed and confused, because the kids are trying to clear themselves and impress a media that converses in a language that is not their prime means of communication.

Police Chief Dompig confirms that none of the three suspects admitted to having sex, other than sexual fondling, with Natalee. However, he does confirm that one of the suspects stated that Natalee was falling asleep in the back-seat of the car. Dompig stressed that having sex with a person falling out of consciousness was a crime in Aruba. Accordingly, the Deepak tape could shed some light on a criminal offense, if it is in fact accurate and substantiated.

Accurate and substantiated goes beyond the content of the tape taken by Jimmy Skeeter. If Deepak denied having sex with Natalee to the Aruban police, then he admits on tape to having sex with Natalee. Although the statements appears to be contradictory, they are not at the present time. The denial is under oath; whereas, the admission is a matter of general talk with an individual enticing the admitter. Clearly, if the tapes prove genuine, Deepak can claim on his sexual admission to have been promoting Jimmy Skeeter to give him some money for a future publication, etc. As for the Joran comment, Deepak seems to be hypothesizing and needs no further amplification.

Dan Riehl has, "Joran Van Der Sloot's Shocking Statement," in which he writes:

It appears that they did not play the entire interview tape in Current Affair's recent interview with Dutch murder suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot. I had heard previous reports from Aruba that perhaps Natalee wasn't as thrilled with things at home as she might have been and was somewhat upset that last night on the beach.
Dan points to the entire true Joran van der Sloot transcript here.

Dan also points to a complete dressing down of Beth Holloway - "Aruba and the USA - A Case Of Trendy Dominance," and says to "sit up straight - it's lofty reading. It's sort of like what I (Dan) have been saying, only it's sporting a Ph.D.

To this I have to add that the article also sits well with us.

Scared Monkeys has posted that Josie Mansur claims that Steve Croes is intending to sue Beth Twitty for ruining his reputation.

Interestingly, one of the comments on the post is from someone claiming to be Steve Croes, and that someone denies Josie Mansur's statements and confirmations.


Grett interviewed Jug Twitty and David Kock, attorney for Satish Kalpoe. During her interview, Jug talked about the three affidavits and the two uniformed officers on-scene in front of Joran's house when Joran allegedly confessed to sexually assaulting Natalee. When asked by Greta why the uniformed officers did not enter Joran's statements into the police record, Jug responded that their superior told him that the two uniformed officers did not recall what was said that night. (Sounds like a polite response to avoid a confrontation.)

David Kock related his understanding of the court documents about what happened the night Natalee left with Joran, Deepak and Satish. The most significant information was that Satish did not see anything unusual between Joran and Natalee. Natalee was at no time unconscious while in the back-seat of the car. Satish last saw Natalee when they left Joran and her on the beach behind the Marriott. Satish cannot positively confirm that Deepak did not go back out that night, after they arrived home, because Deepak resides in a separate room. As far as Satish knows, Deepak remained at home all night.

Greta then hosted Detective Williams, and attorneys Grimm and Hammer. Williams feels that once the tape was edited, they lost it as evidence. Hammer and Grimm feels that if the tape is deemed authentic, they can use the statements on the tape as leverage against the three suspects. However, Williams vehemently disagrees, while all agree that the three suspects will be charged sooner or later.

Now moving on to the research side of our commentary, the only way to present this is as the semi-raw data that it is! So you may find some of it somewhat disjointed, but I'll try to keep it as organized as possible. Our purpose here is to get more information thrown into the mix and on the table of possible involvements in Natalee's disappearance. I find this to be appropriate owing to what all of us have learned about possible family-related "skeletons" and misleading statements that may be completely fabricated or based upon inaccurate information.

The following links identify the two Mississipian conncetions:

Victor Nance and Louis Hamric are the main culprits in a Ponzi scheme run through AmSouth Bank in Jackson, MS. I followed the case through various court documents and related articles. Most of the sources are linked hereinafter. Then, I checked Dan Reihl's site on his Discussion board #137. It is a long post with many insginificant chats running in and out of detailed discussions. The posters on board #`137 had acquired some of our posted data; however, despite all the pros & cons posted, even by Mountain Brook signatories, no one, I mean no one, proved that Thomas Jar Twitty was not the Thomas J. Twitty mentioned in the Florida real estate scam. All they did is to discount his particiaption by saying that a bank would not allow an investment advisor to hold such a position, if he had a criminal record. I found that interesting.

Another side issue surfaced from a notorious poster, Proudredneck, claimed that the Twitty-Holloway phone at the Holiday Inn was wiretapped. Though no one proved or disproved the revelation, it did come across as possible. The wiretapper was said to be a PI working for Michael Posner. After Natalee went missing, the poster, Proudredneck, claimed the PI worked for the van der Sloots.

In my prior interface with Proudredneck, I found him abrasive; however, he did seem to know what he was talking about. I would not immediately discount what he is saying, other than to acknowledge some form of distant allegiance between him and the Twitty-Holloway group.

SEC NEWS DIGEST

Victor G. Nance, registered investment advisor: money laundering:

On February 20, 2004, in Jackson, MS, Victor G. Nance was sentenced to 10 years in prison, fined $10,000, and ordered to pay over $9.1 million in restitution for his part in a large scale Ponzi scheme. Nance pled guilty to depositing $519,015 into AmSouth Bank, knowing that the funds were derived from mail fraud or wire fraud. He also pled guilty, along with co-defendant Hamric, to the forfeiture count designed to recover the $10.2 million that investors lost in the fraud scheme engineered by Hamric and Nance. Nance had been a financial advisor for years and convinced many of his clients that they should invest in a "Promissory Note" with Louis Hamric which would pay them between 18% and 30% per year. Nance convinced over 40 clients to invest over $10 million in this scheme. In return Hamric paid Nance approximately $4.8 million in commissions for his services. Although the victims were told that they were investing in a money trading program, no such programs exist and the interest they received was, in fact, a repayment from their own funds.
AmSouth pays $50M in fraud investigation - 2004-10-12

Part of the record remains under seal. U.S. attorney Dunn Lampton says the $40 million "forfeiture" is one of the largest ever by a publicly traded bank.

November 25, 2003

Louis D. Hamric II, attorney: Ponzi scheme and fraudulent notes.

Riehl World View: Natalee Holloway Discussion 137
Mike Posner of Holiday Inn is a convicted felon from the US who has a really bad reputation and while he gave them room for a while, he was ensuring their phone calls were tapped. The Posner family are the owners of the Murder Mansion in Chicago and have big crime ties. It was not a pretty sight when the FBI investigated them. The PI that was Posner's is now said to be working for the vanderSloots. He is the one responsible for the quick spread of disinformation about the Holloway-Tiwtty family on blogs.
Posted by: proudredneck | Aug 20, 2005 11:15:56 PM

their phone calls were tapped.
Posted by: proudredneck | Aug 20, 2005 11:15:56 PM

I personally don't know of the validity of Jar's "involvement."
Have you ever seen Jar during this ordeal? His twin boys WERE ON THE TRIP!

Jug said on Hannity & Colmes the other night that "natalee was caught up in something bigger and that his family was involved." (or words to that effect)
Just a lot of weird stuff!

Posted by: wreck | Aug 20, 2005 11:48:17 PM

i said that before too.........and was corrected. they said

Dr. Dennis Twitty is with AmSouth
Dr. Dennis Twitty is the cousin of Jug and Jar.

Jar is incarcerated for 18 months.
Someone posted the paperwork:

))))))))))))))))

Don't know if this could have anything to do with kidnapping theory or not, but Jar Twitty was sentenced to 18 months for the conviction of conspiracy, bank fraud and money laudering for development of a real estate project in Pinellas County, Fla.

Posted by: kat | July 24, 2005 02:37 PMhttp://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/natalee_hollowa_60.html

I did not find that strange at all. Dave used to be a Specia Ops guy. He knows what he is doing. Walk lightly, carry a big stick and keep your eyes and ears open.

Posted by: proudredneck | Aug 20, 2005 11:50:59 PM

Jar Twitty and AMSouth

I see someone posted part of the inital discussion and also part of the LONG court document.
Here is some of my stuff.


Jar is/was a VP in an investment part of AMSouth.

There were two rumors started about a month ago. Both I think first appeared on Scared Monkeys. It claimed a link between Twitty and laundering money in South America, a "Nicaragua investment scam". It had links to two LONG U.S. legal documents that covered the case and AMSouth was fined. However, reading the documents did not show a connection. The rumor also suggested that is why Natalee was kidnapped and removed to S.A.

http://biz.yahoo.com/law/050602/4f0ab45b588c6018ac45a3f627fb6ac5.html?.v=1
"Two men had been running a Ponzi scheme and funneling money through AmSouth. Both men were caught and sentenced to long prison terms. The victims lost about $10 million, virtually all of which was recovered through civil litigation. AmSouth was culpable because it should have caught the scheme and reported it to banking regulators, but never did."

These were American investors that were losing money.

http://moneylaundering.com/NewsBriefDisplay.aspx?id=626

The only connection between AMSouth and Nicaragua is the criminals used banks there to do the same crime. A fraud scheme that began with the use of AmSouth bank accounts morphed into more frauds that involved other banks in Mississippi, Panama and Nicaragua, and ripped off some 97 investors across the United States for more than $24 million, according to federal indictments and law enforcement sources.

In 2002, Louis Hamric and Victor Nance, two Mississippi men, orchestrated the original "Ponzi" scheme involving the issuance of promissory notes held in AmSouth accounts, according to federal court records. A Ponzi scheme is a fraud in which early investors are paid off with money raised from later investors.

THE ONLY CONNECTION IS THAT JAR TWITTY WORKS (or did) AT AMSouth.

The second rumor was Jar Twitty being involved in a real estate scams.

24 July 2005 at 5:32pm | IP Logged

Re Jar

As was reposted above. This Jar Twitty is a VP at a bank. There is no way he could hold that position as a convicted felon. That Thomas J. TWITTY has to be someone different.

Posted by: Wayne | Aug 21, 2005 12:29:44 AM

Yep. A VP at a bank can't even have a bad credit report, much less a felony conviction.

Posted by: bhm mom too | Aug 21, 2005 12:34:52 AM.

And last but certainly not least, did Natalee go back to the Holiday Inn?

From Dan's recent post! I remeber this gal, Letsbefair (sorry, I don't recall the link). She was open minded about this whole affair.

>>At least 1 MB teen stated on camera that she did make it back to the HI. Some of you are looking for reality with blinders on. If she ran away on her own free will then yes, it is her fault that she's missing. If she went to buy drugs and the MB group won't talk about it, then they are partially responsible. If she was shipped off to Venezuela or some other hell hole, then the Twittys aren't doing much good harassing J2K are they? Natalee wasn't at Joran's house. He didn't kidnap her. Beth is just too thick headed to admit that she was wrong.

Posted by: letsbefair | Oct 14, 2005 11:25:28 PM.

As I said in my introduction - disjointed but it's all worth getting into the mix and on the table.

Posted for HarryTho

Posted by Richard at October 14, 2005 11:36 PM

My friend is a paralegal. This evening she suggested to me to tell you to use "Find Law" for your research.

Posted by: xoxoxoxoxoxooxxoox at October 15, 2005 3:26 AM

Joran’s “unedited” interview at School later shown on “A Current Affair.” What a difference a “splice” makes!!!


[QUOTE=mamano]The things that Joran said are pretty much everything that we have said right here. [at Bushy]
Beth just runs with everything she sees and hears, not caring if it is factual.[/QUOTE]

QUOTE JORAN: "One thing she told me was that her mother was Hitler’s sister's daughter. I don’t know what she was talking, a lot of strange things."

Here is the complete "uncensored," "unedited" interview:
http://scrux.com/natalee/joranunedited.htm


If Natalee really expressed herself of Beth in those terms, added to the fact that some of her classmates claim she had referred on occasion to her mother as a “Nazi” back in Mountain Brook, that
would help clarify a lot of things, and might even point out to the possibility of a suicide.

Beth herself has proven that the portrayal seems to be pretty accurate, being that she's such a "control freak," a "vindictive," and a "despotic" person, as in the way she has behaved all throughout this ordeal towards Natalee's father, Dave!

I would like to add, that the way the reporter doing the interview seems to go over the same questions over and over again, paraphrasing them in different ways, but obviously trying to elicit from Joran "certain" answers seems indicative, of his wanting to have plenty of responses that he could later on use to "edit" Joran apparently saying what he wasn't saying at all, by "splicing" it all out of context, as the end result which we have witnessed on TV was! He had no intention of doing an "honest," incisive interview, but rather of "bating" ansewrs out of Joran with which to do his later "manufactured" creation!

This coupled to the reports of "witnesses" who have not been "aired" after being interviewed by the "Networks" because since their testimonies were contrary to Beth's allegations, the networks didn't want to "alienate" her; the "suppression" from the very start of all the photographs, cell phone calls and other pertinent data from the chaperones, and Natalee's classmates, the "persistent" silence from Mountain Brook, and the deportment of the "Robokids" so named because of their apparent lack of "emotion" and "spontaneity," whose's few interviews seemed to have been closely "coached" and "scripted" (hence the name "Robokids"); in unison to the "bland" approach to interviewing Beth that has been used all along by such otherwise "caustic," "incisive," and "intrusive" reporters such as the likes of Bill O'Reilly, Geraldo Rivera, Greta Van Susteren, and others who consistently have given Beth a "pass" on everything from Natalee's behavior the night she disappeared at the C&C as seen by witnesses, to the "toothbrush," to telephone calls that would have proven Natalee was alive after she had been left at the beach by Joran, the "lies" and "fabrications" about documents in the hands of Aruban Authorities, to the way they have “edited” Joran’s interview, makes one think that there must be some "contract" or "release" in writing between Beth (the "Goose that lays the eggs of Golden Ratings"), and these News outfits not to ask any “prying questions not to Beth’s liking,” who, by the way, also keep putting her back in the "limelight," though there have been no new developments in the case for over three months, in spite of terrorist bombings, the war in Iraq, devastating hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, and sundry other natural calamities and disasters, to once more hear Beth hashing the same stale old “mantras” with nothing new to add to the case!!!

To any “commonsensical” person witnessing the above, it would appear that rather than there been a “conspiracy” on the part of the Aruban authorities, who have tried to deal with all this madness the best they could, which Beth has denounced “ad nauseam” with no solid evidence to do so, the one “real” conspiracy seems to be between the Twitty camp, Marcia’s PR campaign, and the media!!!

Talk about a coverup!!! This is “Bethgate!!!” Some journalist with “cojones” ought to investigate this!!!

Althor


Posted by: Althor at October 15, 2005 3:55 AM

I was disturbed when Dompig said in his interview with Dan Abrams that he had to take the video off his computer to put it on a tape to give to the FBI. I don't know enough about how these things are done to have an intelligent opinion, but doesn't that process make it easier for him to give an edited version of what actually transpired to the FBI? To get a really unedited version, wouldn't the FBI have to have his computer?

Posted by: np at October 15, 2005 11:28 AM

I have observed the Natalee Holloway story from the beginning. I would like to know if the events surrounding this matter have been chronicled by any one person, or a group of individuals, with a solid investigative background. I am looking for an objective summary of events, one that reports on the various aspects of this case without editorial comment.

Posted by: amyo at October 15, 2005 1:07 PM

np:

Yes, the authorities in Aruba or the FBI will require the original medium with which the conversation between Jimmy Skeeter and Deepak Kalpoe was recorded. Any subsequent reproduction lends itself to adulteration. I find it hard to believe that Jimmy Skeeter recorded Deepak Kalpoe's statements on his computer in an Aruban hotel room while they were socializing with alcohol.

Police Chief Dompig is correct with his concern for authentication.

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 15, 2005 2:56 PM

amyo:

Yes, I believe the source of such data would be the Aruban Police in Oranjstad, Aruba. If this is a serious inquiry, then I would direct you to the United States Consulate General in Willemstad, Curacao.

AMERICAN CITIZEN SERVICES: cgcuracao@attglobal.net Tel: 011 599(9)461-3066, fax: 011-599(9)-461-6489

A consular officer will be able to interface with the Aruban government to provide the data that you require.

Good luck!

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 15, 2005 3:14 PM

Police Chief Dompig confirms that none of the three suspects admitted to having sex, other than sexual fondling, with Natalee. However, he does confirm that one of the suspects stated that Natalee was falling asleep in the back-seat of the car. Dompig stressed that having sex with a person falling out of consciousness was a crime in Aruba. Accordingly, the Deepak tape could shed some light on a criminal offense, if it is in fact accurate and substantiated.

----------------------------------------

I'm not sure what you meant here, but it sounds almost like you are confused about what Dompig said. Here is what he said from the transcript:

Rita: Did any of these three ever admit to having sex with Natalee at any point chief?

Dompig: No, they did not. They keep denying it, they only went as far as to say that they fondled sexually, at least Joran did that. The others denied everything.

Rita: We have heard from the family chief that Joran stated that she was going in and out of consciousness, did you see that anywhere?

Dompig: Yes, that is definitely in the statements. That is why we were kind of disappointed when the judge didn’t accept that. That is basically a felony in Aruba. We think that what happened was the judge just didn’t buy it because Joran went back and forth with his statements. He withdrew two statements he had already given to us. Basically, none of his statements were really trustworthy.

He is saying that Joran's fondling of Natalee or whatever constituted a felony based upon her state of mind. Not that the tape itself was what they needed to prove a felony, which is the impression I got from your post. Dompig believes that Judge wouldn't accept this, because Joran had given many differing statement to the point he proved himself unreliable, and without any other testimony or evidence his own words wouldn't be strong enough to prove the felony to the judge.

I find it very interesting that Joran has already admitted to a felony, according to Dompig. Worse yet, the only reason he wasn't prosecutable for these actions is that his own word isn't trustworthy enough.

Posted by: DT at October 15, 2005 8:18 PM

DT:

First, I can assure you that Police Chief Dompig did not mean to imply that "falling in and out of consciousness" was a felony in Aruba. I believe what the police chief referred to was "having sexual relations with a person falling in and out of consciousness who complains about the encounter." Three actions are needed in order for such a felony to be activated: 1) sexual relations of the "penetration however slight" variety, 2) the person being violated is in fact "falling in and out of consciousness" and 3) the person being violated complains of the encounter. I will leave the examples of every act falling short of these requirements to our readers' imaginations.

Second, in our current situation, no "penetration however slight" has been admitted under oath by any of the suspects. To the best of my knowledge, there exits no statements by suspects or witnesses that the alleged victim was falling in and out of consciousness to a degree sufficient in order to breach a threshold for one of the requirements of the aforementioned felony. And, the alleged victim has not complained of any wrongdoing. All the witnesses attest to the alleged victim's willingness to participate in whatever went down that evening.

Accordingly, Joran has not admitted to any wrongdoing. From what information has been released, Joran admits to fondling the alleged victim and, perhaps, she fell asleep in the back seat of the car. We must keep in mind that the alleged jelly-shot on the C&C bar racks up a lot of mileage of what the alleged victim would have considered improper fondling in the back seat of the car.

The judge decided against the prosecutor's motion, because it lacked sufficient evidence. Keep in mind that the defense counsels prevailed against the prosecutor, because, to date, there exists no evidence that a crime was even committed.

Lastly, the authenticity of the alleged tapes are another matter to which I have articulated in another response.

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 15, 2005 11:25 PM

Harry -

No, I didn't think he meant that "falling in and out of consciousness" was a crime. However, I think that whatever he meant by "sexual fondling," when taken into account with Natalee's mental state, would constitute a felony. I seriously doubt that one has to penetrate someone for it to be considered a felony. Sexual touching of any kind -- even without penetration -- would almost certainly be some type of felony if the victim is unable to consent due to impairment.

That being said, Dompig could not have been referring to anything other than Joran's statements when referencing the felony, since he tries to provide a rationale for why the judge didn't buy the felony charges. Joran was released well before the Skeeters tapes, so it would have to be the statements about sexual fondling Dompig referred to immediately before the "felony" comment.

I have no personal knowledge of the exact statements given to the police, but clearly Chief Dompig considered Joran's admission to constitute a felony. Obviously, the judge disagreed. However, that does not have to mean that what Joran admitted was not a felony, there could be several explanations, such as the possibility that Joran lacked credibility, as Dompig said.

Whatever the judge's rationale for the decision, Dompig's comment can only be interpreted as saying that Joran's admission would be considered a felony if proven true.

Posted by: DT at October 16, 2005 12:04 AM

DT:

How will Police Chief Dompig prove that a felony occurred while Natalee was in Joran's company? He can arrest Joran on suspicion of alleged sexual assault; however, a large chasm exists between arrest and conviction. Conviction requires solid evidence. The Aruban courts have made that very clear to the prosecutor. From the last court hearing, I would conclude that the prosecutor has come to the end of her "benefit-of-doubt" rope with the Aruban judiciary.

As for improper fondling, worthy of a felony, the jelly-shot sets the standard. If Police Chief Dompig is relying on statements from Joran to indict him, then the police chief is required to acknowledge Joran's rendition of the jelly shot. If the alleged victim permitted Joran such liberties with her body in a public place, with an audience, then the Aruban judiciary would allow tremendous latitude to the defense.

Lastly, we must keep in mind that Police Chief Dompig's native language is not English, hence his representations may not match those of our expectations. Given the circumstances of this case, as we understand them to be, I believe, Police Chief Dompig would be required to meet the requirements that I posted earlier for a conviction against Joran for sexual assault.

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 16, 2005 12:36 AM

Althor:

I believe we can conclude that a $50-Billion-asset financial institution entices a good deal of media, opportunity and political support, wouldn't you agree?

With Aloha,

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 16, 2005 4:07 AM

BETH HOLLOWAY's MOTHER WAS ADOLPH HITLER's SISTER's DAUGHTER!!!????

Wow!
This is quoted by Joran van der Sloot as having been told him by Natalee Holloway.
That's an amazing statement.

[See Joran interview transcript at: http://scrux.com/natalee/joranunedited.htm ]

Any truth to it? Any FAMILY TREE folks out there have any info on this?

Jack in Southern California

Posted by: Jack in Southern California at October 16, 2005 2:38 PM

Harry,

I think we have sort of lost track of this discussion. I'm not trying to argue that they can prove a felony occured, only that Dompig has stated Joran admitted to a felony in one of his statements.

Now as far as your comment about jelly-shots, I think you miss the point entirely. First, it is a leap from someone allowing alcohol to be licked out of their navel to them allowing sexual touching. And I think we can concede that in no way does the allowance of one of these actions mean that victim would allow the other.

Whatever the case, I don't think her allowing the jello-shots would even factor into this debate at all. We wouldn't say, for instance, that because a woman had previously had sex with a man that she thereby would allow him to have sex with her while she is unconscious. I fail to see how this same principle wouldn't be valid in this case as well.

Posted by: DT at October 16, 2005 2:56 PM

DT:

We have not lost track of the discussion. We are on track. The reason for the apparent confusion is that the media only presents the direct with respect to Aruban arrest requirements. What I am responding is the cross with respect to conviction. The jello shot, on the evening in question, will become the reference for or against inappropriate behavior. Furthermore, since I am presenting the cross, the prosecution's direct lacks a complaining witness or forensic evidence in support.

In response of degree, how could Police Chief Dompig contend that sexual fondling with a person falling asleep, or asleep, constitutes a felony? If that were correct, all the men who so engaged with a woman in a comfortable bed could be charged, should the woman succumb to the comfortable environment, regardless of the women's aspirations. Of course, the role reversal would put women significantly more at risk of such a charge!

The direct is always easy to promulgate. In Natalee's disappearance, the absence of any cross seems only too evident.

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 16, 2005 4:59 PM

I think Dompig could contend that just as easily as someone could contend that having sex with a person who is unconscious is a felony. The problem here, is that an unconscious person cannot give consent and so it is therefore sexual assault for someone to perform a sexual act upon them, even if they had allowed things of a similar nature to go on in the past. Maybe I am just missing the point, but I fail to see how one can say it is ok to perform a sexual act on someone who is not able to consent. Joran's words alone may not be enough to convict him of such a crime, but I think we can at least draw from it that he admitted to something that at least is highly unethical and would be considered a crime if Natalee were able to speak out.

Whatever the case, I think Dompig is aware of the law in Aruba, and would certainly know enough to say what constitutes a felony. He has not come across to me as being biased one way or the other, or accomodating to any of the family members desires. So I think that we can trust his judgement in this situation.

Posted by: DT at October 16, 2005 5:36 PM

DT:

I am sure that Police Chief Dompig knows the words of the law. It is his duty to uphold the words of the law. The interpretation of those words becomes a matter for the court to decide. First, did the alleged victim's state of consciousness meet the requirements of the law? Certainly, Joran van der Sloot (17 years old) is not qualified to make that determination, regardless of the veracity of his statements. Second, though Police Chief Dompig could arrest based upon the words of the law; however, it is the prosecutor who will be tasked with the application of those words of the law. What supporting evidence could the prosecutor supply in order to bolster her interpretation of the words of the law under consideration? She has but three witness. All of whom provide testimonies quite distant from any sense of wrongdoing.

Remember, if someone engages in sex at one time, the next time that person engages similarly only becomes a crime when his/her partner objects. Even if the partner fell asleep during the second sexual encounter, it is not a crime unless the partner objects (after the act). In the case at hand, all witnesses contend that whatever degree of sexual encounter occurred was consensual.

Police Chief Dompig is stating the law, but he omits the objection portion. Clearly, Police Chief Dompig is not prepared to go around Aruba arresting everyone who engaged in sex with a person who fell asleep during the sexual encounter. Don't you think he would want to inquire, first, as to whether or not the person who succumbed complained of being violated? Given the number of the Aruban jail cells in Oranjstad, don't you think that there are too few jail cells for such an ambitious and adventuresome legal position that you attribute to Police Chief Dompig?

Harry

Posted by: harry Author Profile Page at October 16, 2005 6:26 PM



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