First let me make it clear that I honor your son's service to his country. Some men and women must be serving the USA at all times; and thus they can be victims of misguided policy as with any other loyal citizen.
But by God the history of this country has been built on brave men and women who stood up within the framework of our Democracy and said "This is not right!" The lack of respect for the subject that is shown in the insulting and simplistic claim made above is indicative of some of the short-sighted nationalistic penis waving that passes for patriotism these days. We have attacked a country, bombing and killing many more non-combatants then were killed in the twin towers, and done it with carefully constructed lies and a premeditated agenda.
Now there is no doubt we are in another Vietnam; fighting a guerilla force on their home turf and losing precious face in the world community. Many Americans are incredibly unsophisticated in their appreciation of our neighbors on this planet. If we do not learn to be the wise leader this world needs we will paint ourselves into a financial corner and have few real allies.
And the best way to combat Islamic extremism? Become a model to the world of a strong country leading the way in doing what's right. Like supporting our troops by bringing them home; like getting out of Iraq and letting them straighten it out; and by pumping chunks of the money we're saving into massive humanitarian aid to the Iragi people. Have the courage and conviction to be the Big Father as needed, not the Big Bully pounding his chest.
There are mindless, horrible people living in most of our neighborhoods, some behind middle and upper class doors. Do we drop cruise missles in their neighborhoods to make sure we get them? Why can we tear children's limbs off in another country for just that reason?
Let's grow up and lead the world, not pump out isolationist nonsense like this.

Bclint is clearly as delusional as you indicate in the post. Unsophisticated? My thoughts exactly, at least regarding the left's assessment of our "neighbors" (there's a new one).

"the best way to combat Islamic extremism? Become a model to the world of a strong country leading the way in doing what's right."

I suppose we weren't doing anything right before 9/11, were we? Well, by Islamofascist standards, we weren't. We have a SECULAR society, despite the lunatic rantings of the lying left. THAT is what Islamofascists hate--that we don't "submit" to Allah. Get over your idealism that if we were just more CARING (and collectivist, no doubt) they wouldn't bother us. It's our CULTURE, stupid, and ours is the strongest and most influential culture on earth. Guess what else, they hate YOU and your moral relativist Komrades every bit as much as the rest of us, if not more so. And don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back as you proclaim chronic whiners like you the foundation upon which this country was built--your little Stuart Smalley self-affirmations are amusing, but really, this country was built with the blood of our military, not with a river of self-loathing tears.

And bclint, why don't YOU grow up and live in the real world, instead of pumping out YOUR isolationist nonsense? (Do you even understand the meaning of "isolationist"?) You are a f'n liar if you claim to "support the troops" with your asinine rhetoric. You have no clue what they believe, obviously. You're typical thinking that they are victims of anything! Hilarious!

"National penis waving"? Excuse me, but the last time I checked, I don't have one to wave. But if I did, I'd damn sure rather be waving it than watch it sit limply like you. Thanks for the analogy--the impotent left makes it so easy.

So Sad. More of the same blind hatred and ignorance. I said nothing about kowtowing to Islamofascists. If you don't think I'm ready to kick ass in support of my beliefs and my country you'd be way wrong. You think I'm a leftist bleeding heart liberal? You'd be wrong about that too. We have killed innocent people by the thousands in clumsy pursuit of an enemy we barely understand. I lived within sight of the towers for 18 yrs. I'm sick of them being mentioned as the rationale for us entering this stupid senseless war. Kill Hussein, kill Islamic extremists who attack us, develop a fighting force that's not such a blunt instrument (ask Donald Rumsfeld about that last one- it's his goal too), etc. I'm behind all that.
But, If you go on saying that 'they' are the enemy you can justify anything. Who they hell are the 'they' if we can't tell friend from foe? The course we are on will only make more enemies and inspire more terrorists. Is our objective to fight terrorism or to get our rocks off cheering and jeering like kids at some foolball game? Any asshole can go to war. It's takes guts to lead.
"Submit to Allah"? Komrades? Chronic whiners? What ignorant drivel. To be considerate of the rest of the world while still fighting our enemies takes strong leadership with concern for our children's future.
And you think I'm weak, Beth? You'd have to send some tough mofo's to take me down; and they'd remember me a long time afterward, too. Take your childish short-sighted ignorant alienating rant and put it where the sun don't shine...

If the shoe fits, wear it! OPPS! Sorry, if the foo sh*ts wear it! Either way, works just as well. A Liberal by whatever definition or other name, wants to understand, talk, compromise, find middle ground, "be considerate of the rest of the world", cannot name an enemy unless he is pointing a gun at their head, and gets really defensive when they are called on it. No one is rah-rah about having to go to war. People are dying on both sides, good guys and bad guys. That is what happens in war. But to stop fighting those who behead for no reason, blow-up themselves and others just to make the weak tremble and give up thir rights to think and live free of tyranny, would be the highest form of cowardice and evil. May all the sons and daughters, Moms and Dads who are fighting so we don't have to be kept safe and strong.

"give up their rights to think and live free of tyranny.."

I couldn't have put it better myself.

And the sons and daughters, Moms and Dads, will only be kept safe and strong when we get them out of Iraq. Just check the growing lack of faith among the military in our mission there.

bclint, Do you really believe that the USA causes people to give up rights to think and live free of tyranny? If you do, what other nation of this world would you rather live in? I don't know where you get your info re: the morale of the troops and Iraqi people, but it doesn't fit with the truth of those who are there and reporting on the ground (not the MSM). You seem very idealistic and totally anti-war, but reality is not flowers and fluff. Sometimes hard choices have to made by those who have been given the power to act. No one is correct all the time, nor are they always wrong. When you get to be President, remind me of this.

No, I mean that people who think like the posters above are not striving to be free of tyranny, not the USA. The individuals are what make a country, not the other way around. And where do you get that I am "very idealistic and totally anti-war"? Because I oppose this war? We went into this war with deliberately manufactured LIES! When I get to be President that will not happen, OK!
And I am in touch with what's happening in Iraq; a quagmire of poor planning and worse vision with no end in sight. While Americans stand in long useless lines at the airport for "security". Some of those hard choices Cindy A speaks of need to be made here at home. Support the troops! Bring them home!

For bclint, there has always been people that let others do their fighting for them. Let's be clear that we've had people like that in every war ever fought, and as a Marine, I remember that attitude from the days of Vietnam. But we who fought, and we who fight, are not misguided - it's called duty, honor, and country. And as for my son being misguided as you have implied - every single man in his very special group has been there in Iraq before, and volunteered to go back, some several times.

By your comments I learn much about your political orientation, and much about your understanding of the world-wide threat of fundamentalist Islamists that we have faced well before 9/11. I am not censoring your comments because this is still America and you are free to offer your opinion.

Should our men and women in the armed forces, my own son among them, fail to stop Islamists where they train and practice their trade, you won't have that right very long. You may never be convinced of that, but thankfully, others are.

On the day that 9/11 happened, I was in the VA hospital with about 30 other worn-out and crippled Marines, Army Rangers, Army Paratroopers and Air Force PJs, and most, like myself, were in wheelchairs. Later I learned that every single one of those men had done what I did that day - they called their local recruiter and begged to be given special permission to go back in. The recruiters had to tell us all that it was time for others to serve, that our time was past.

The point here is that none of us were misguided, all of us had been there, done that, earned the t-shirt and the class ring, and for our country, were willing to risk it all again. Misguided? Yes, someone is a little misguided, but somehow I find it hard to believe that those thirty men of the spinal cord unit, albeit a little 'touched in the head' for even thinking that they still had anything to contribute, with all the collective years of trials, experiences and wisdom behind them - were the ones that were misguided.

But keep voicing your opinions, because by God that's what we fought for and many of our buddies died for, and that's what my son and all the other sons and daughters in Iraq are fighting for - at this very moment.

They will come home - when the job is done, and not before. Trust me, those two guys in the above picture are not the kind of men that you want to call misguided, at least not to their face.

Thank you for reading and commenting on Hyscience. I'm willing to bet that there is a hell of a lot of things that you're right on, this just happens not to be one of them.

I did not say that your son was misguided. I called him a victim of misguided policy.
I resent the implication that it is only you and yours who put themselves on the line so that I can say what I think; my family fought in the Revolutionary War and most of them since. All of our families have put themselves on the line so we can all say what we think. And that includes defending your right to be wrong about the best way to combat Islamic extremists. We all have that goal; I just believe we have made a big mistake with this action. What is it about the experience of those men in the VA hospital that I should think it less of a mistake?
And my proud American right to say that does not have to bow down to anyone; nor do I need to use the insults and far-reaching assumptions of the posts above to defend that right.
How egotistical of you to think you can read me so easily. Ever hear the quote "the trouble with the world these days is that fools always know just what to do and the wise are in doubt"? You are so sure of yourself! When did you stop learning?

bclint, I've said my piece and I'll let it ride. One of us has just may have a learning issue, but I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one.

You seem a decent fellow, and I welcome your comments. I wouldn't expect you to understand the VA scene and it's implications, so we'll just let that ride. As to your policy comments, you'll find many that disagree with you, and I'm one of them. But that's what makes America great. Fortunately for all of us, our nation is doing what we're doing, and because of it, folks like you and me will continue to be able to have discussions such as those that occur here.

Good luck on the growth of your world view, bclint. And no, I've never stopped learning in spite of a hell of a lot of education and years of leadership in science and corportate development. But I have learned enough to know a dead end when I see one - and the War on Terror isn't one, but our discussion is.

Some folks just never get it. But I'll keep the comments section open on this post so you can argue till your heart's content. Thanks again for showing up and I look forward to the things that we find in common.

Good grief! Is that what this is all about? The art of the riposte? I came here to debate ideas and you smugly insult and dismiss me? You're the moderator here? People who only talk to those who agree with them become inbred in the head. You should be ashamed of yourself, venting your bitterness this way. Later.

bclint apparently does not understand that we are in a world-wide war against islamofacism. They will kill us anywhere, as in the gutpunch of 911, so we must kill them first. It is a 14 century old war going on, islam against everybody else.

"Many Americans are *incredibly unsophisticated* in their appreciation of our neighbors on this planet."

Oh my god, Al Franken was right! Why didn't I listen to to Katrina van den Heuvel when she was telling me about the "lack of sophistication" of "most people" in this country.

Paul Krugman tried to tell me that most people in this country are uninformed, uneducated, or just too lazy to get The Facts, but I wouldn't listen.

Oh, if I would just pay attention, educate myself, if only I was as enlightened as the left, if I could just tear myself away from the wrestling matches and Nascar rallies, the world would be a much better place to live, because I would finally see The Truth.

I guess I am an isolationist. I was under the mistaken impression that taking out a sadistic dictator and replacing him with a democratic government would somehow help bring some measure of stability to the Middle East.

I feel so...used.

bclint is a flame jockey. He has so little meaningful in his life that he has to frequent a conservative blog and try to start flame wars. There are so many wonderful and beautiful things about our world that it is sad that he has to use this as justification for his existance. Does everyone notice that he's checking in here every hour or so hoping that someone has responded to one of his pithy responses, thereby validating his reason for living.

No, bclint, you're not going to find a lot of people here that view things the way you do. You're not going to convince any of us no more than any of us are going to convince you. Therefore, why post anything?

My son, a Corporal in the US Marines, just returned from Afghanistan. He fought the good fight, and I am proud of him. I would go if I could. So I know the pride you feel Hyscience. The world is made a better place due to the dedication of these few, not for the apologists we've seen here.